What are the rules on the road? Etiquette and all that stuff

maxima

Hi, I am new in the UK cycling. I used to be in semi-pro. Have almost top qualification in the country I was brought up. But quit 25 yrs ago.

I am now doing a bit of riding in the Richmond Park as I found UK roads way too dangerous.

I never rode bike in the UK before.

So I would appreciate if you guys could help me to understand the rules on the road.

Where are really few guys in the park who are remotely professional so I am not really sure what audience to ask.

May be rules are different between pros and club riders and just enthusiasts.

I made two surprising discoveries.

I'll ask question about the first here and then perhaps move the other one to a separate thread.

So.. riding along another rider.

I normally would expect that a rider who is riding on his own agenda in his own tempo alone wouldnt really give a toss if someone is tagging along using him as a windshield. unless that is happening during a race.

even if he knows you and you are from a competitor team it doesnt matter during the training.

if you want to work together to increase speed you can try to engage him offering to lead in turns, if he is taking that offer - just have a good ride and enjoy.

if you dont want to increase speed, or your agenda is to pedal with increased cadence behind a leader or whatever - you can sit behind forever - nobody cares. because you are not competing.

in Richmond park I tried to tag behind twice. first guy (not a pro) once saw me started to accelerate like crazy and work vigorously until I gave up and then he went to his previous speed. second guy was ok for two laps in the park (but at some point of time he preteneded he needed to stop to effectively lose me).

is it something considered to be impolite to use someone's wheel?

jibberjim

Yes, it simply is, unless you talk to the person first, a great many people don't mind, but unfortunately there's a lot of fit but useless riders in the park who manage to crash in so many ways that you wouldn't believe - so many people are not happy with people sitting on. Nor the new found responsibility to point out hazards etc.

So many riders just don't want to have someone unknown with unknown skills on their wheel with the responsibility that puts upon them - even if that is essentially 'nil. Just ask the rider - either as they pass you or you pass them.

bobtbuilder

WHS^^^

No-one wants a rider of unknown ability wheel-sucking you with the potential to wipe you out at any moment.

disgruntledgoat

in Richmond park I tried to tag behind twice. first guy (not a pro) once saw me started to accelerate like crazy and work vigorously until I gave up and then he went to his previous speed

That guy sounds like a dick.

maxima

thanks. understood.

dont really know how you can crash someone from behind but thats fine.

CiB

It's not about crashing, it's about a stranger invading someone's personal space by assuming that the rider in front doesn't mind having someone right on his backside. Ask first if you want to do it; if he's ok with it then suck his wheel. Don't be surprised to find that some riders really don't want to have someone in close enough proximity to be heard singing & mumbling whilst not being close enough to have a civilised conversation.

whyamihere

maxima wrote:

thanks. understood.

dont really know how you can crash someone from behind but thats fine.

If you're a decent rider and know what you're doing, you almost certainly won't. The problem is the pillocks who can't ride properly, who don't look around enough and half-wheel. Any braking or line adjustment from the person in front, and someone staring at the rear tyre of the leading rider is going to hit them. Unfortunately, you have no way of knowing if the person tagging on behind you is competent or a pillock.

bobtbuilder

maxima wrote:

thanks. understood.

dont really know how you can crash someone from behind but thats fine.

Rider in front brakes & slows. Rider behind not paying sufficient attention and riding close to front rider piles into the back of the leading rider. I've seen it on a fair few occasions.

disgruntledgoat

bobtbuilder wrote:

maxima wrote:

thanks. understood.

dont really know how you can crash someone from behind but thats fine.

Rider in front brakes & slows. Rider behind not paying sufficient attention and riding close to front rider piles into the back of the leading rider. I've seen it on a fair few occasions.

In almost every example, that's going to result in the rider behind going down on his own though.

jibberjim

disgruntledgoat wrote:

In almost every example, that's going to result in the rider behind going down on his own though.

Oh yes, the actual risks to you as the front rider are pretty minimal, but it's still pretty crap if you're the front rider and it happens - what do you do? Carry on riding 'cos it wasn't your fault, nothing to do with you etc. No - that's an offence under the RTA, you have to stop to exchange details, it's also pretty unfriendly and rude if the guy is injured etc.

Accidents also risk the use of the park, the parks authority and police are extremely tolerant of cycle training in the park, generally caring more about reckless cycling that the exact details of the law. The more accidents and bad riding that happens though the more likely the existing laws will start being enforced more strictly.

disgruntledgoat

jibberjim wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

In almost every example, that's going to result in the rider behind going down on his own though.

Oh yes, the actual risks to you as the front rider are pretty minimal, but it's still pretty crap if you're the front rider and it happens - what do you do? Carry on riding 'cos it wasn't your fault, nothing to do with you etc. No - that's an offence under the RTA, you have to stop to exchange details, it's also pretty unfriendly and rude if the guy is injured etc.

Accidents also risk the use of the park, the parks authority and police are extremely tolerant of cycle training in the park, generally caring more about reckless cycling that the exact details of the law. The more accidents and bad riding that happens though the more likely the existing laws will start being enforced more strictly.

I thought leaving people to die in the road was just what you did in London?

jibberjim

disgruntledgoat wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

In almost every example, that's going to result in the rider behind going down on his own though.

Oh yes, the actual risks to you as the front rider are pretty minimal, but it's still pretty crap if you're the front rider and it happens - what do you do? Carry on riding 'cos it wasn't your fault, nothing to do with you etc. No - that's an offence under the RTA, you have to stop to exchange details, it's also pretty unfriendly and rude if the guy is injured etc.

Accidents also risk the use of the park, the parks authority and police are extremely tolerant of cycle training in the park, generally caring more about reckless cycling that the exact details of the law. The more accidents and bad riding that happens though the more likely the existing laws will start being enforced more strictly.

I thought leaving people to die in the road was just what you did in London?

That's why I listed the RTA offence first - there's a lot of police in the park!

cougie

Never had these problems up North. Is it a new MAMIL thing ?

BelgianBeerGeek

jibberjim wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

In almost every example, that's going to result in the rider behind going down on his own though.

Oh yes, the actual risks to you as the front rider are pretty minimal, but it's still pretty crap if you're the front rider and it happens - what do you do? Carry on riding 'cos it wasn't your fault, nothing to do with you etc. No - that's an offence under the RTA, you have to stop to exchange details, it's also pretty unfriendly and rude if the guy is injured etc.

Accidents also risk the use of the park, the parks authority and police are extremely tolerant of cycle training in the park, generally caring more about reckless cycling that the exact details of the law. The more accidents and bad riding that happens though the more likely the existing laws will start being enforced more strictly.

No you don't. The Road Traffic Act states "owing to the presence of a mechanically propelled vehicle...". Doesn't apply to damage/injuries caused by bikes, horses etc. Unless you ride into a car of course.

kieranb

well, not in Richmond Park (RP), but twice I have had riders behind me crash into the back of me when I had to stop, once for a red light (they assumed, like most cyclists I see, that I would go through it) and once for a car exiting from a side road without checking traffic on the main road. Although they did not happen in RP if you are an ex-semi-pro you will probably soon get bored of RP and will need to venture out onto the roads to get to the countryside and some hills.

veronese68

I don't like to sit on anyones wheel. I don't trust others and can't say I'm perfect. If I catch someone and can't get passed quickly I'll sit a little way back and out a bit.
A while ago in RP I was passed by a guy on a nice ti road bike, I gradually caught him going up Sawyers Hill but didn't have enough in reserve to pass him at a reasonable speed. So I sat behind him rather than turn myself inside out trying to crawl by and taking up too much road. He didn't seem to like it and turned and glared at me a few times. I made the effort and overtook him after the hill.
I'm no expert but surely crawling up a hill at about 12mph there is little advantage to taking a tow, which I wasn't.

Dmak

Oops, didn't mean to post here.

Dmak

I'll add my 2 cents here. I commute 45 miles almost daily at the mo and it's almost always a headwind on the return so if there's a wheel to grab, I'll take it, no shame. I always say thank you on parting and never get too close.

Found out via Strava that one guy who towed me was doing an official TT lol, almost offered a turn but suffered calf cramp and it would have been cheating anyway.

willhub

I don't sit on strangers wheels, I sit about 100m back and decide if the speed is acceptable or if I'm going to overtake, I then usually overtake like a bat out of hell because I don't want them sticking on my wheel.

I really don't like it if you're working your ass off and someone is tagging on the back of you and then eventually decides to overtake.



Also, it's important to wave at other cyclists, if you don't they'll turn around and give you a good hiding.

Dmak

Well, I caught up with someone yesterday at a set of lights near Brookwood, took his wheel for a bit, offered, took a turn at the front and totally overcooked it, destroying myself in the process. I had to retire to his wheel at which point a climb appeared and keeping up took a serious effort. I was relieved when he turned of my route! I wished wish him a good journey and that was that.

I felt rather silly but it was fun and the events have been making me chuckle a fair bit since. :-)

Has anyone else done something like this?

Monty Dog

I've been riding too long to worry about whose sitting on my wheel - I've been at the front of a race to see 60 people hanging on my wheel not prepared to take a pull, so I can cope with one more! If the rider behind hits the rider in front then 99.9% of the time they come off far worse so it's a cr@p excuse to stop someone drafting. Anyone training properly will be sticking to their own specific training, whether it's doing steady miles, intervals or a certain intensity and is unlikely to be worried about another rider behind - except if its a TT or race, where sitting-on a rider wearing a number is just plain rude.

Soni

CiB wrote:

It's not about crashing, it's about a stranger invading someone's personal space by assuming that the rider in front doesn't mind having someone right on his backside. Ask first if you want to do it; if he's ok with it then suck his wheel. Don't be surprised to find that some riders really don't want to have someone in close enough proximity to be heard singing & mumbling whilst not being close enough to have a civilised conversation.

You've knocked the nail on the head here, just the way i was thinking reading the OP comments.

If i was in either situation, i would do the following:-

If i was the rider in front, i would be pissed off with some jerk without any manners and no intent on engaging in conversation prior to doing it, just jumping on my back wheel, that is just damn right rude.

If i was the rider behind, i would ride up alongside the other guy and start conversation, just something simple like nice weather etc., and then see how the conversation goes and if you can engage, and then maybe ask if he minds you tagging along with him to do a few laps, and you can take turns leading.

I met a club group of really fit riders a few months ago at a set of lights on red, they were about 2/3 through a 75 club ride, i didn't realise this at first, until i asked if they minded me tagging along with them for a few miles, they said they didn't mind at all, and we had a good conversation about things as we were riding.

A little common sense plays dividends.

spen666

jibberjim wrote:

.....Oh yes, the actual risks to you as the front rider are pretty minimal, but it's still pretty crap if you're the front rider and it happens - what do you do? Carry on riding 'cos it wasn't your fault, nothing to do with you etc. No - that's an offence under the RTA, you have to stop to exchange details, it's also pretty unfriendly and rude if the guy is injured etc......

Erm, not sure what RTA laws you are referring to , but in England & Wales there is no legal duty on you as a cyclist to this. Duty applies to Motorists, but not cyclists

It is however, pretty bad form not to stop

spen666

willhub wrote:

...
I really don't like it if you're working your ass off and someone is tagging on the back of you and then eventually decides to overtake.


...

Why?

rolf_f

Soni wrote:

CiB wrote:

It's not about crashing, it's about a stranger invading someone's personal space by assuming that the rider in front doesn't mind having someone right on his backside. Ask first if you want to do it; if he's ok with it then suck his wheel. Don't be surprised to find that some riders really don't want to have someone in close enough proximity to be heard singing & mumbling whilst not being close enough to have a civilised conversation.

You've knocked the nail on the head here, just the way i was thinking reading the OP comments.

If i was in either situation, i would do the following:-

If i was the rider in front, i would be pissed off with some jerk without any manners and no intent on engaging in conversation prior to doing it, just jumping on my back wheel, that is just damn right rude.

This I suppose. As it happens, I don't really get this attitude on a personal level - if someone needs a tow from me I regard it as a measure of my brilliance as a cyclist! Obviously on a weekend leisure ride it is pretty rude not to just have a bit of a chat but then if you are commuting in the big city, it's a bit different really. Being sociable isn't always an option and you aren't likely to be running together for more than a few minutes anyway.

But, that notwithstanding, even though I don't really get why CiB and Soni are so bothered by it, the fact that they are seems to me that it is pretty unarguable that it is wrong to draft without the asking. I rarely draft anyway - sometimes I do pick up drafters and it rarely irritates me (except for the tosspot who tailed me all the way up Swinnow hill for ten minutes and then did a proper blast past just short of the summit so I couldn't get on to his tail. But I figure he lost really as he was just showing his insecurity!

Incidentally, re etiquette. On the same hill someone else passed me last week (to my shame!) though he hadn't been drafting (at least not for long). So I did a Chris Froome and gradually reeled him in (actually, not so gradually as I got held up at a pelican crossing and still caught him without too much trouble). Anyway, I decided not to overtake him again as he was going a fair pace but I did make a point of some unneccessary gear changes and noisy freewheeling so he was under no doubts that I was back on his wheel. I think this was the more mature response than re-passing him. I think I made my point!

CiB

Rolf F wrote:

But, that notwithstanding, even though I don't really get why CiB and Soni are so bothered by it, the fact that they are seems to me that it is pretty unarguable that it is wrong to draft without the asking.

To expand a little, I don't know for sure that I would be that bothered by a proper roadie sitting on my wheel. Doing mainly rural commutes & rides I don't encounter many other cyclists going the same way; from memory I've had someone sit on my wheel twice, both were farmers by the looks of it, dressed in muddy overalls riding in wellies on big heavy MTB type bikes. It seemed a bit of a cheek to me, sitting there having a tow up a long hill without even acknowledging me - both times I never knew anyone was there till I was passed at the top after the tow. Clearly if I was any good they wouldn't have seen me for dust but sometimes I do just sit up and take it easy instead of busting a gut to set a PB every time I go out. It was the lack of acknowledgement that did it for me, just sitting there unbeknown to me up the hill and doing the quick pass once I'd led the way. I could have been belting out a Led Zep track, anything weird could have been happening. Heck if I'd known I was being tailed I'd have opened the taps and give it some beans to show who's boss anyway so it wouldn't have been an issue. As it was, it struck me as a bit of a cheek.

Hmm? Conclusion? I was caught napping and didn't like it. Maybe that's it.

Soni

CiB wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

But, that notwithstanding, even though I don't really get why CiB and Soni are so bothered by it, the fact that they are seems to me that it is pretty unarguable that it is wrong to draft without the asking.

To expand a little, I don't know for sure that I would be that bothered by a proper roadie sitting on my wheel. Doing mainly rural commutes & rides I don't encounter many other cyclists going the same way; from memory I've had someone sit on my wheel twice, both were farmers by the looks of it, dressed in muddy overalls riding in wellies on big heavy MTB type bikes. It seemed a bit of a cheek to me, sitting there having a tow up a long hill without even acknowledging me - both times I never knew anyone was there till I was passed at the top after the tow. Clearly if I was any good they wouldn't have seen me for dust but sometimes I do just sit up and take it easy instead of busting a gut to set a PB every time I go out. It was the lack of acknowledgement that did it for me, just sitting there unbeknown to me up the hill and doing the quick pass once I'd led the way. I could have been belting out a Led Zep track, anything weird could have been happening. Heck if I'd known I was being tailed I'd have opened the taps and give it some beans to show who's boss anyway so it wouldn't have been an issue. As it was, it struck me as a bit of a cheek.

Hmm? Conclusion? I was caught napping and didn't like it. Maybe that's it.

You got Drafted by a Farmer covered in mud? LOL !!!

You have got to be on a wind up right!

CiB

CiB wrote:

...but sometimes I do just sit up and take it easy instead of busting a gut to set a PB every time I go out.

Yellow Peril

Dmak wrote:

Well, I caught up with someone yesterday at a set of lights near Brookwood, took his wheel for a bit, offered, took a turn at the front and totally overcooked it, destroying myself in the process. I had to retire to his wheel at which point a climb appeared and keeping up took a serious effort. I was relieved when he turned of my route! I wished wish him a good journey and that was that.

I felt rather silly but it was fun and the events have been making me chuckle a fair bit since. :-)

Has anyone else done something like this?

I took six months off cycling at the beginning of last year to concentrate on a set of exams. I did absolutely nothing execept drive or bus to work and revise afterwards. ~My exams finished on the Thursday and I immediately got back on my bike for the 10 mile trip into work the next day.

On my way home that evening I was passed by a well known local cyclist who I'd helped out some months previously with a puncture. Although he is in his 50's he is still very handy and insisted that I take his wheel for an "assist" home. Well he wound up the pace and I died a 1000 deaths on his wheel. I dropped off on a short rise and he waited for me at the top! By the time we got into Peel I could barely speak. It was a great gesture but not what you want first day back!