Vuelta GC ignoring bonus seconds

afx237vi
afx237vi Posts: 12,630
edited September 2012 in Pro race
Rest day boredom has made me wonder what the Vuelta GC would look like if there weren't bonus seconds on offer.

Bonus seconds earned so far: Rodriguez: 64 / Contador: 21 / Valverde: 36

Adjusted GC:

Contador 63h 39'13"
Rodriguez 63h 39'28" (at 15")
Valverde 63h 41'04" (at 1'51")

So Contador would be leading, but of course it's not as simple as that because of the way bonus seconds change the way certain riders approach tactics.

Comments

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    afx237vi wrote:
    Rest day boredom has made me wonder what the Vuelta GC would look like if there weren't bonus seconds on offer.

    Bonus seconds earned so far: Rodriguez: 64 / Contador: 21 / Valverde: 36

    Adjusted GC:

    Contador 63h 39'13"
    Rodriguez 63h 39'28" (at 15")
    Valverde 63h 41'04" (at 1'51")

    So Contador would be leading, but of course it's not as simple as that because of the way bonus seconds change the way certain riders approach tactics.

    Who would you say deserves to be in red of the two?
    _
  • LangerDan
    LangerDan Posts: 6,132
    You do realise what you've just done?

    Why don't you go repeat "Candyman" into the mirror a few times while you're at it!
    'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    afx237vi wrote:
    Rest day boredom has made me wonder what the Vuelta GC would look like if there weren't bonus seconds on offer.

    Bonus seconds earned so far: Rodriguez: 64 / Contador: 21 / Valverde: 36

    Adjusted GC:

    Contador 63h 39'13"
    Rodriguez 63h 39'28" (at 15")
    Valverde 63h 41'04" (at 1'51")

    So Contador would be leading, but of course it's not as simple as that because of the way bonus seconds change the way certain riders approach tactics.
    I reckon JRod could have put more than 15 seconds into Contador by opening up a little earlier on each of the MTF's if bonus seconds hadn't been in operation.
  • rozzer32
    rozzer32 Posts: 3,920
    I think bonus seconds are a waste of time in races. You bust your balls hanging on to a wheel up a mountain and yet by finishing on the wheel you can lose time. Stupid really. And what's with the no bonus seconds in a TT. You either give time bonuses on every stage, or not at all.
    ***** Pro Tour Pundit Champion 2020, 2018, 2017 & 2011 *****
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Rick Chasey wrote:

    Who would you say deserves to be in red of the two?

    Whoever covers the kms quickest innit, but it's not that simple, because like Slim Boy says, I think Rodriguez has had it in his legs to open a gap if he needed to. But bonus seconds alter the way a race pans out. Don't forget J-Rod lost 4 seconds when he stopped pedalling and got beat by Valverde on the first climbing stage.
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    rozzer32 wrote:
    I think bonus seconds are a waste of time in races. You bust your balls hanging on to a wheel up a mountain and yet by finishing on the wheel you can lose time. Stupid really. And what's with the no bonus seconds in a TT. You either give time bonuses on every stage, or not at all.
    Personally I don't like them but I seem to remember people crying out for them during the TDF to spice up the racing.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    J Rod's been the better rider in the race, for sure.
    _
  • Turfle
    Turfle Posts: 3,762
    He's been better going uphill, but Contador was a minute better in the TT.
  • rozzer32
    rozzer32 Posts: 3,920
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    rozzer32 wrote:
    I think bonus seconds are a waste of time in races. You bust your balls hanging on to a wheel up a mountain and yet by finishing on the wheel you can lose time. Stupid really. And what's with the no bonus seconds in a TT. You either give time bonuses on every stage, or not at all.
    Personally I don't like them but I seem to remember people crying out for them during the TDF to spice up the racing.

    But have they spiced up the racing at the Vuelta? Would Contador, Valverde etc not be attacking if there was no bonus seconds?
    ***** Pro Tour Pundit Champion 2020, 2018, 2017 & 2011 *****
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    rozzer32 wrote:
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    rozzer32 wrote:
    I think bonus seconds are a waste of time in races. You bust your balls hanging on to a wheel up a mountain and yet by finishing on the wheel you can lose time. Stupid really. And what's with the no bonus seconds in a TT. You either give time bonuses on every stage, or not at all.
    Personally I don't like them but I seem to remember people crying out for them during the TDF to spice up the racing.

    But have they spiced up the racing at the Vuelta? Would Contador, Valverde etc not be attacking if there was no bonus seconds?
    Not sure they have made any difference to the way Contador or Valverde have ridden. You could argue that JRod would have been more aggressive without them. My comment was really to point out that you can't please everybody.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Thanks for doing that AFX.

    Argument for bonus seconds is that if you are a better climber then you should be able to gap the others before the line. If there is someone with you who always takes the seconds, well they have ridden up the climb the same time as you and have a better sprint. An extra skill.

    I want Contador to win, but part of me feels that I would quite like for Joaquim to win:
    -He has ridden for 10 odd years and never won one despite many good placings
    -He has animated races
    -He is a nice guy
    -He may not get another chance as good as this as Contador will be back and kicking
    -Joaquim has ridden a super race
    Contador is the Greatest
  • Turfle
    Turfle Posts: 3,762
    I dislike bonus seconds immensely.

    Has Rodriguez been so much better uphill than Contador that he deserves an extra 43 seconds? Has Valverde earned an extra 15 seconds? The stage win should be bonus enough.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Can someone please calculate the Premiership with goals from free kicks, the Ashes without boundaries and the Rugby World Cup without conversions.

    Thanks.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    RichN95 wrote:
    Can someone please calculate the Premiership with goals from free kicks, the Ashes without boundaries and the Rugby World Cup without conversions.

    Thanks.

    Drop-goals in rugby are pretty much the same as bonus seconds in cycling.
  • Turfle
    Turfle Posts: 3,762
    Or how the Premiership would have looked if you got an extra point for every game you won by 2 goals.
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    I can see the argument for bonus seconds, the problem with this Vuelta is that there have been so many similar stage finishes that it is the same people who keep getting the bonus seconds. Cumulatively it starts to have a distorting impact. If there were less steep mountain top finishes, finishes into a town at the top of a climb, finishes after a short descent following the final climb etc you might have a more even spread of the bonuses so they would have encouraged attacking riding without having such a distorting effect.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/41991871@N ... otostream/
  • avoidingmyphd
    avoidingmyphd Posts: 1,154
    Contador has won it on bonus seconds before. It'll be no great injustice if he loses it in the same fashion.
  • LangerDan
    LangerDan Posts: 6,132
    afx237vi wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Can someone please calculate the Premiership with goals from free kicks, the Ashes without boundaries and the Rugby World Cup without conversions.

    Thanks.

    Drop-goals in rugby are pretty much the same as bonus seconds in cycling.

    Look at the use of bonus points in the Heineken Cup matches
    'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'
  • josame
    josame Posts: 1,162
    afx237vi wrote:
    Rest day boredom has made me wonder what the Vuelta GC would look like if there weren't bonus seconds on offer.

    To share is to care ... :roll:
    'Do not compare your bike to others, for always there will be greater and lesser bikes'
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    LangerDan wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Can someone please calculate the Premiership with goals from free kicks, the Ashes without boundaries and the Rugby World Cup without conversions.

    Thanks.

    Drop-goals in rugby are pretty much the same as bonus seconds in cycling.

    Look at the use of bonus points in the Heineken Cup matches
    I would, but no-one's seen one of them in Cardiff for a few years now.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,181
    LangerDan wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Can someone please calculate the Premiership with goals from free kicks, the Ashes without boundaries and the Rugby World Cup without conversions.

    Thanks.

    Drop-goals in rugby are pretty much the same as bonus seconds in cycling.

    Look at the use of bonus points in the Heineken Cup matches

    Or any reasonably top level rugby - I've seen teams relegated or lose out on promotion despite having won more games due to bonus points and not just try bonuses but losing bonuses. Why reward a team for not losing by too much?

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