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Brakes are censored in the wet

chedabobchedabob Posts: 1,133
edited September 2012 in Road buying advice
I replaced my brake pads with these:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=61807

Looking at other reviews, their performance in the wet is supposed to be pretty good, but for me they do absolutely naff all. Even with the levers as far back as I can get them, the wheels carry on turning, albeit slower. The cable tension is right, even a little bit too tight as getting the wheel off can be tricky.

I was thinking of replacing the pads with Kool Stop Salmons, but am I wasting my money and I should be looking at replacing the rims for ones with a better braking surface? The rims are some bog-standard Alex Rims that came with the bike.

Posts

  • estampidaestampida Posts: 1,008
    is the toe-in of the pads ok??
  • Try the GHP2 from SwissStop.You'll be sorted!

    http://www.swissstop.ch/Road.aspx
  • thistle_thistle_ Posts: 6,186
    I bought some of these as they are also meant to be good in the wet:
    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=55815

    However I haven't found them much better than the stock pads that came with my Sora brakes. They do slow you down to a stop (albeit slower than in the dry) and you can lock the rear wheel in the wet with them.

    They were cheap though and came with a spare set of pads so not too fussed.
  • deadfalldeadfall Posts: 32
    As I mentioned in another thread, the brake pads that came with my bike were useless in the dry and I didn't fancy using them in the wet. I changed them for swisstop greens and there was a massive improvement. They're a bit more expensive at £20+ for a set, but you can't put a price on safety. I haven't tried them in the wet properly yet, but they performed brilliantly in a light shower the other day.
  • Team4LukeTeam4Luke Posts: 597
    Rim surface is probably the most vital factor here, none the less you could degrease and clean your braking surface, maybe some very light sanding to rough it up a little, but do clean off the dirty and rubber.
    Wheels with a machined braking surface are far superiour than smooth rims, so for new wheels with them.
    Have you used new inner brake cable, does sound like your stretching your cable. Ensure your blocks are toed in slightly in the correct direction.
    Those ultegra blocks should be fine, however having tried all sorts I think the best are good old 105 ones, those without carriers.
    Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young
  • schweizschweiz Posts: 1,644
    either your brake cable tension isn't set up correctly or you're expecting too much from your brakes!

    I use/have used shimano brake pads (whatever comes with DA/Ultegra, but I'm pretty sure last time I looked the part number moulded on them was the same) and koolstop salmons. I've never had a problem in getting the wheels to lock if I grab a handful of brake in an emergency with either.

    I was using shimano pads on long, wet alpine descents at the weekend and I had no problems at all.

    The only issue when it's raining is that the wheel has to do a few revolutions before the water is scrubbed off the braking surface, so look well ahead, anticipate and brake in plenty of time. But it doens't matter if you cycle, motorcycle or drive in the wet you need to allow for longer stopping distance.

    As both my motorcycle and driving instructors said (when referring to the gap to leave between you and the car in front) "Only a fool breaks the two second rule. When it pours, make it four!"
  • Paul EPaul E Posts: 2,052
    Koolstop salmons, just fitted a new pair of their new dura 2 salmons and holy censored I had forgotten how they grip the rims compared to the pads I got with a set of 105 brakes and I had the pads as spares.

    Also in the wet I always dab the brakes now and again to make sure no [email protected] has found it's way onto the rims.
  • chedabobchedabob Posts: 1,133
    schweiz wrote:
    either your brake cable tension isn't set up correctly or you're expecting too much from your brakes!

    The tension is correct as the pads sit about 2mm from the rim. They're so close that even with the QR open I have to wiggle the tyre past them.

    The old pads were mediocre all round, but these new ones are great in the dry, and terrible in the wet. I ditched the old ones as they chewed up the rim and I kept getting bits of metal embedded in the pads.

    The blocks are toed in, and I've degreased the rims and gave them a rough up when I replaced the pads.

    I know the stopping power isn't going to be great in the wet, but even the unbranded pads could lock the wheel in an emergency. Bringing the bike to a controlled stop with these pads is quite nerve-wracking, as the first few revolutions of the wheels feel like the braking surface is made of wax.
  • get better rims then, if it's raining you need to use the brakes now and again even when no need to clear and clean them, even on a long descent don't keep them full on, use them on/off.
    I messed around with aftermarket pads on ceramic rims once, I am lucky to be alive.
    Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young
  • fizzfizz Posts: 483
    IMHO the Shimano pads arent the best in the wet I would agree OK in the dry, but the wet performance has left me with a few brown trouser moments in the past.

    Swiss Stop Salmons or the Black compound, will be an improvement, the best results I had were with Swiss stops, but they do come at a price...
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    The braking surface is aluminium alloy however it is finished - and it will wear over time so any machined surface will be gone long before the wheel is worn out. Ultimately it is down to the pads - if you've got the best pad material you can get and they are in cartridge form rather than solid block then you've got about as far as you can. It will always take a moment to scrub the water off a wet wheel so take that into account when riding in the wet and reduce speed.

    I do regularly clean the censored off the wheels and remove any metal from the pads.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Rolf F wrote:
    The braking surface is aluminium alloy however it is finished - and it will wear over time so any machined surface will be gone long before the wheel is worn out. Ultimately it is down to the pads - if you've got the best pad material you can get and they are in cartridge form rather than solid block then you've got about as far as you can. It will always take a moment to scrub the water off a wet wheel so take that into account when riding in the wet and reduce speed.

    I do regularly clean the censored off the wheels and remove any metal from the pads.

    so your saying it's not worth buying rims with a machined braking surface to have the extra safety for say the first 5+plus years of life in them before the surface is worn smooth :roll: :!: By the time any machined surface is worn out the wheels would be past their sell by date anyway and long since been replaced. I've never worn one out yet, I guess some people may only have one bike and quite possibly have it long enough to wear a rim down but really they would have been sensible enough to have replaced wheels by then anyway for various reasons.
    A smooth or worn rim can be revived a little using a Mavic Rim Cleaner Block, essentially a block of sandpaper, this will clean the rim out and scor it a little, braking is improved.
    Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young
  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    chedabob wrote:
    I replaced my brake pads with these:

    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=61807

    Looking at other reviews, their performance in the wet is supposed to be pretty good, but for me they do absolutely naff all. Even with the levers as far back as I can get them, the wheels carry on turning, albeit slower. The cable tension is right, even a little bit too tight as getting the wheel off can be tricky.

    I was thinking of replacing the pads with Kool Stop Salmons, but am I wasting my money and I should be looking at replacing the rims for ones with a better braking surface? The rims are some bog-standard Alex Rims that came with the bike.

    I've got 6700 brakes and blocks on my Trek, and they work just fine in the wet, I'd suggest it's either down to your set up or braking technique.
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • Monty DogMonty Dog Posts: 20,614
    Team4Luke wrote:
    so your saying it's not worth buying rims with a machined braking surface to have the extra safety for say the first 5+plus years of life in them before the surface is worn smooth :roll: :!: By the time any machined surface is worn out the wheels would be past their sell by date anyway and long since been replaced. I've never worn one out yet, I guess some people may only have one bike and quite possibly have it long enough to wear a rim down but really they would have been sensible enough to have replaced wheels by then anyway for various reasons.
    A smooth or worn rim can be revived a little using a Mavic Rim Cleaner Block, essentially a block of sandpaper, this will clean the rim out and scor it a little, braking is improved.

    Virtually all metal rims these days come with machined brake tracks and braking pretty well remains constant throughout the life of a rim IME (I've worn out a few pairs). Clean rims, decent pads and properly adjusted set-up are what makes a difference.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Team4Luke wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    The braking surface is aluminium alloy however it is finished - and it will wear over time so any machined surface will be gone long before the wheel is worn out. Ultimately it is down to the pads - if you've got the best pad material you can get and they are in cartridge form rather than solid block then you've got about as far as you can. It will always take a moment to scrub the water off a wet wheel so take that into account when riding in the wet and reduce speed.

    I do regularly clean the censored off the wheels and remove any metal from the pads.

    so your saying it's not worth buying rims with a machined braking surface to have the extra safety for say the first 5+plus years of life in them before the surface is worn smooth :roll:

    If you can't read, don't bother replying. I didn't say it was not worth buying rims with machined braking surfaces but please do point out where you think I have and I can explain what the words really mean. :roll:
    As for lifespan - if it takes you five years to remove the original machined surface then you aren't riding much and certainly not in bad weather in which case comments about braking in the wet are a bit irrelevant. And as Montydog says, braking remains pretty constant anyway.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • You implied it in your first line.
    I explained how you can revive a worn surface, you did not.
    It is not down to the best pad material you can get, a cartridge form is also neither the best from a solid block.
    The best set up is the combination that works with your particular rims and blocks and is not neccessary the best pads you can buy.
    I explained above originally that in my case basic rubber 105 without carriers worked well for me. Some blocks with carriers tend to be too hard and simply do not grip rim surfaces, old 105 rubbers are soft and grip better. I explained that I had tried aftermarket pads and a very well know brand of supposedly improved performance and those nearly killed me, and I do mean this.
    I gave an example only of five years and reasons for people who may wear them out at a different rate.
    Anyone that wears out a machined surface should with any sense regardless of how long it has taken them to wear it down or out should replace them, this is simple safety guidance.
    I won't be replying to any post you make on this due to your first line remark.
    Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young
  • guineaguinea Posts: 1,177
    It's weird.

    My braking in the weight is either censored , or very noisy and censored . This depends on whther I have the Shamals or the Boras on. The Boras being the louder.

    However, I think I may be spoiled. I quite often use a Boris bike and they are always far, far worse than either.

    So I am wondering if my expectations are too high.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Team4Luke wrote:
    You implied it in your first line.

    I'm not really bothered if you reply (enjoy your sulk if you don't - but it would be more interesting if you did :wink: ) or not but I didn't imply any such thing. I said that it is the nature of the material that determines its effectiveness as a braking surface - not the machining. You are the one that says that the machining is a notable safety benefit. I don't think that it is. Therefore I can hardly recommend that someone doesn't buy a rim with a machined braking surface for the extra safety when I don't think that there is any extra safety benefit - that's your presumption. That said, I can see how you would misinterpret what I was implying so I apologise on that one.

    I would have offered to undertake a brake test to see if I could detect any difference between those wheels I own (mainly Campag) with a fully intact machine milled braking surface and one without. However, none of mine have that original machine milling intact on the front rims despite some of them being pretty low mileage.

    I simply do not understand your comment that you should replace a rim when the machined surface is worn. My Khamsins come with a brake wear guide that is probably a good mm thick - ie I will have worn out most of 1mm of alloy before I need to replace the rim. The original surface is already long gone so I'm assuming you'd have me replace the rim despite the fact that Campagnolo still think the rim has thousands of miles in it? On that basis you'd be having me replace wheels on a monthly basis! Or do you misunderstand that the surface that you see on a new wheel really doesn't last for very long. In the old days, the pads wore down and the rims remained untouched (being plated steel). Now both pad and rim wear down together. Expensive but more effective.

    Lastly - re cartridge pads. Obviously pad material is the primary issue - as I stated (quote = me; if you've got the best pad material you can get and they are in cartridge form etc). However, given the same material I would be surprised that blocks could be more effective than cartridges as the latter ensure that the whole of the pad exerts the same pressure on the rim rather than the centre of it. I'm guessing here but it seems pretty logical and I'd be surprised if anyone in the pro peleton has block brakes.
    Faster than a tent.......
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