Professional Bike Fit

DarrenGTi

Are they worth the money?

Koolstof are local to me and have heard some good things about their bike fitting services. I ride 100-150 miles a week and have a bit of a hangover from a knee injury when I played rugby a few years ago. It just aches now, no real pain.

Will a bike fit help this? Also what other benefits are the of having one?

Thanks

drlodge

You can do it yourself if you know what to look for.

There are just 3 points that are important. Bum, Feet, Hands. Start with Bum vs. Feet, once that's sorted fettle with the hands position. Sorted.

DarrenGTi

Thanks. Have you got any links to a suitable guide?

jouxplan

As someone who has had four bike fits in the UK, by four different sets of people / outfits, and also gone to the expense of travelling, in desperation, to USA for a bike fit, I think I am in a position to say something on this subject, which is close to my heart.
The short answer to your question is 'it depends'. Mostly it depends on what the bike fitter's experience is and what their approach is. It also depends on whether you have significant issues like functional leg length discrepencies and pronating feet and the like.
My story is that in all cases, the various bike fitters I sought out had different approaches. Why did I seek them out? I had a problem with the pedalling action in my right foot. The first four fitters (including the USA one) struggled to solve it. The first fitter raised my saddle (a lot) and slammed it back a long way in the rails. I had been racing for 20 years and had used a saddle height of 726mm all that time. Up it went to a huge 746mm. This felt weird but I assumed he knew what he was doing. My situation got worse. The next fitter lowered me a little. As did the next one and the next one. I ended up at 731mm, but still felt wrong.
All four of these fitters had used varying degrees of wedging beneath the shoe to tilt my feet. All of them had different ideas about where to put the cleat, and at what angle etc. They all measured my limb lengths and used computer software and video imagery to determine what my knee angle 'ought to be'. They adjusted saddle height and for-aft to create such a knee angle. And so on and so on. It all seemed most impressive at the time.
However, none of it worked. I was very frustrated. I ended up just going back to where I started before I ever met a bike fitter - a saddle height of 726mm and no wedging or anything in my shoes. This seemed the best compromise, and I put up with this for the next two years.
Early this year, I came across an article about saddle height that blew me away, from a bike fitter well known in the bike fitting industry. He is not from UK, nor is he from USA. I then visited his web-site and read all his other articles. They were eye-opening to say the least. Everything I thought I knew about bike fit, I completely re-thought. I started applying his ideas. I LOWERED my saddle from 726mm, gradually over a period of months, until I ended up at 711mm. I changed my cleat position. I moved my saddle fowards. I wedged my feet in a systematic way. I placed shims under my right foot.....etc. The change was astonishing. I had power, I was fluid through the stroke, I was less fatigued during rides, I was comfortable. It was incredible.
Yesterday, I went to see a bike fitter in UK who has been taught by the Australian fitter I eluded to above. I wanted to see if I was on the right track. I am pleased to say that I was 80 - 90% of the way there, all by myself (he was pretty impressed!). But more impressive, was his whole approach. It was entirely different to the other fitters. No video, no formulae, no rush, no clock-watching; just tons of time spent on just understanding ME, and how the hell my feet worked and what to do with the shoes and cleats........
Anyway, to answer your question directly, it depends on who you see. You may be lucky, and the chap you see comes up with something that works for you. But you may be unlucky. I would say that if you have any issues with your feet, ankles, leg lengths, then be very careful about who you visit. I am not going to say on here who I have seen over the years, and I am not going to say that they were 'all rubbish' (bar yesterday's chap); but in my case, and I suspect quite a few others, the results were not especially helpful and there was no real understanding of what was wrong with my pedalling.
I am sure you will get some responses from bike fitters on here (and perhaps I will too) - the main thing is for you to try and find out as much as you can about the person you propose to visit, in particular what their approach is. If it involves knee angle measurement and video and things, I suggest you be wary - YOUR body might not work well at such and such an angle, and you need a fitter who understands this and is prepared to ignore 'the knee angle rule', for example.
I've probably put you off - not my intention!

DarrenGTi

Wow, thank you for such a detailed response. I do have issues with my feet, they are flat as a pancake. This has given me numerous issues over the years, I can't run for long distances and I was always on the physio bench at rugby.
I went for a quick chat today and he mentioned the muscles in my lower back were tight and that my pelvis was at a funny angle which could be causing discomfort and making me think I need a wider saddle. I'll ask a good number more questions and see how we get on.

DarrenGTi

Jouxplan - I'm not sure if I can PM you as you're a new member. Would you mind emailing the details of who you recently used to my address at darren.jasper@hotmail.co.uk Many thanks. Darren

houndlegs

jouxplan wrote:

As someone who has had four bike fits in the UK, by four different sets of people / outfits, and also gone to the expense of travelling, in desperation, to USA for a bike fit, I think I am in a position to say something on this subject, which is close to my heart.
The short answer to your question is 'it depends'. Mostly it depends on what the bike fitter's experience is and what their approach is. It also depends on whether you have significant issues like functional leg length discrepencies and pronating feet and the like.
My story is that in all cases, the various bike fitters I sought out had different approaches. Why did I seek them out? I had a problem with the pedalling action in my right foot. The first four fitters (including the USA one) struggled to solve it. The first fitter raised my saddle (a lot) and slammed it back a long way in the rails. I had been racing for 20 years and had used a saddle height of 726mm all that time. Up it went to a huge 746mm. This felt weird but I assumed he knew what he was doing. My situation got worse. The next fitter lowered me a little. As did the next one and the next one. I ended up at 731mm, but still felt wrong.
All four of these fitters had used varying degrees of wedging beneath the shoe to tilt my feet. All of them had different ideas about where to put the cleat, and at what angle etc. They all measured my limb lengths and used computer software and video imagery to determine what my knee angle 'ought to be'. They adjusted saddle height and for-aft to create such a knee angle. And so on and so on. It all seemed most impressive at the time.
However, none of it worked. I was very frustrated. I ended up just going back to where I started before I ever met a bike fitter - a saddle height of 726mm and no wedging or anything in my shoes. This seemed the best compromise, and I put up with this for the next two years.
Early this year, I came across an article about saddle height that blew me away, from a bike fitter well known in the bike fitting industry. He is not from UK, nor is he from USA. I then visited his web-site and read all his other articles. They were eye-opening to say the least. Everything I thought I knew about bike fit, I completely re-thought. I started applying his ideas. I LOWERED my saddle from 726mm, gradually over a period of months, until I ended up at 711mm. I changed my cleat position. I moved my saddle fowards. I wedged my feet in a systematic way. I placed shims under my right foot.....etc. The change was astonishing. I had power, I was fluid through the stroke, I was less fatigued during rides, I was comfortable. It was incredible.
Yesterday, I went to see a bike fitter in UK who has been taught by the Australian fitter I eluded to above. I wanted to see if I was on the right track. I am pleased to say that I was 80 - 90% of the way there, all by myself (he was pretty impressed!). But more impressive, was his whole approach. It was entirely different to the other fitters. No video, no formulae, no rush, no clock-watching; just tons of time spent on just understanding ME, and how the hell my feet worked and what to do with the shoes and cleats........
Anyway, to answer your question directly, it depends on who you see. You may be lucky, and the chap you see comes up with something that works for you. But you may be unlucky. I would say that if you have any issues with your feet, ankles, leg lengths, then be very careful about who you visit. I am not going to say on here who I have seen over the years, and I am not going to say that they were 'all rubbish' (bar yesterday's chap); but in my case, and I suspect quite a few others, the results were not especially helpful and there was no real understanding of what was wrong with my pedalling.
I am sure you will get some responses from bike fitters on here (and perhaps I will too) - the main thing is for you to try and find out as much as you can about the person you propose to visit, in particular what their approach is. If it involves knee angle measurement and video and things, I suggest you be wary - YOUR body might not work well at such and such an angle, and you need a fitter who understands this and is prepared to ignore 'the knee angle rule', for example.
I've probably put you off - not my intention!

Could you put a link to the website please,I'd like to have a read,as I'm sure would others.

Thanks.

jouxplan

houndlegs wrote:

Could you put a link to the website please,I'd like to have a read,as I'm sure would others.

Thanks.

Hello - here is the saddle height article that got me so interested http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/02/seat-height-how-hard-can-it-be/

There are numerous other articles on his website which are well worth reading - cleat placement, saddle fore-aft, shoe wedges, shoe shims, arch support - to name a few.

Hope this helps

jouxplan

DarrenGTi wrote:

Jouxplan - I'm not sure if I can PM you as you're a new member. Would you mind emailing the details of who you recently used to my address at darren.jasper@hotmail.co.uk Many thanks. Darren

Hi Darren, you should find a PM from me now, if I managed to send it correctly!
Cheers,

drlodge

I was fitted at Rourke's, they don't use a jig or any complicated equipment. Instead they sit you on a bike and take it from there mainly using the Mark I eye ball.

StillGoing

Go professional for fitting and not a LBS. Doing it yourself is a disaster waiting to happen. You need to be videoed riding your bike from various angles at a consistent cadence. The fitter will mark the ankle, knee (front and side), hip, shoulder and wrist to be able to measure minimum and maximum angles from the video footage to be able to adjust things and get you within recommended parameters. The human eye cannot do that simply by looking at someone one.

giant_man

+1 I totally agree! It shouldn't be a hit and miss affair, bike fitting is extremely important imo ..

jouxplan

philthy3 wrote:

Go professional for fitting and not a LBS. Doing it yourself is a disaster waiting to happen. You need to be videoed riding your bike from various angles at a consistent cadence. The fitter will mark the ankle, knee (front and side), hip, shoulder and wrist to be able to measure minimum and maximum angles from the video footage to be able to adjust things and get you within recommended parameters. The human eye cannot do that simply by looking at someone one.

Sorry, but this is exactly what is of concern with many bike fitting methods - you are referring to a method that seeks to place you in a position whereby your knee angles etc 'are within recommended parameters'. In other words, they seek to place you within 'a typical range'. Whilst this might be ok for lots of people, it also might be wrong for lots of people. It was certainly wrong for me.

'Doing it yourself is a disaster waiting to happen' is a little strong. If you are patient, and you do your homework, you can get close. One might equally say that having a saddle height determined simply by making sure that you achieve a 'recommended range of angles' is a disaster waiting to happen. It was for me.

If like me you have weird bits of body geometry and issues (eg very long feet, big heel dropper, weak achilles tendon in one ankle, huge pronation, tilted and/or twisted pelvis), then you are not Mr Average and these recommended ranges are more likely to be unsuitable for you. If you are Mr Average with no gait type issues then you may well be ok with the knee angle formulae.

One particular thing that frustrates me is the sort of fit that involves no stationary cycling at all - the one which is based on limb measurements only. This can be horribly inaccurate. It cannot for example differentiate between a toe dipper and a heel dropper, and if you have huge clodhoppers like me, this can make an ENORMOUS difference in required saddle height.

'The human eye cannot do that by looking at someone' - agreed, if what said human eye is trying to do is check whether you achieved a particular angle. However, an experienced human eye CAN watch you on a bike and tell when things are not firing correctly, or are not in line, or just look plain wrong or uncomfortable or unbalanced etc etc.

I re-iterate that I am not trying to say that almost all bike fitters are 'wrong' or 'bad'. I am simply trying to pass on my experience of fitting, which I am guessing is more extensive then a lot of fitting clients; and I am trying to say 'find out more, do some homework, and then make your choice'.

p9uma

@ jouxplan, would it possible to post the link of the bike fitter you used please?

On another, note you have an enviable and impressive fleet of bicycles on your list, how on earth do you get time to ride them all?

monkeydan

Without wishing to step on anyone's toes in this thread (I can appreciate that jouxplan doesn't want to cloud anyone's judgement on the issue), a bit of previous Google-fu led me to http://www.thebikewhisperer.co.uk/

Scherrit was trained by Steve Hogg (one of only two people in the world according to the website) and every single bit of feedback I've seen (on various forums) has been fantastic. I am planning to visit him as soon as I have the money.

Hope it's OK to post this!

jouxplan

p9uma wrote:

@ jouxplan, would it possible to post the link of the bike fitter you used please?

On another, note you have an enviable and impressive fleet of bicycles on your list, how on earth do you get time to ride them all?

Hello,

I used these guys: http://www.thebikewhisperer.co.uk/

As far as my fleet of bikes is concerned , good question! To be fair I generaly only ride the Project 1 and the 5.9. I use the 5.2 in winter. My MTB racing days are long over. My wife keeps telling me to 'get ride of some of these bikes!', but you know how it is.........I love them all! Time is very hard to find, as I am a very busy drummer and I have a day job to boot. But I still train enough that I can enjoy climbing the French Alps every August

Wish I knew how to post a pic of the Project 1 bike - it is a real head turner!

jouxplan

monkeydan wrote:

Without wishing to step on anyone's toes in this thread (I can appreciate that jouxplan doesn't want to cloud anyone's judgement on the issue), a bit of previous Google-fu led me to http://www.thebikewhisperer.co.uk/

Scherrit was trained by Steve Hogg (one of only two people in the world according to the website) and every single bit of feedback I've seen (on various forums) has been fantastic. I am planning to visit him as soon as I have the money.

Hope it's OK to post this!

Yep, you have it! I certainly recommend him, but you are right - I am wary of seeming to slag off everyone else, which is not my intention at all.

StillGoing

jouxplan wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

Go professional for fitting and not a LBS. Doing it yourself is a disaster waiting to happen. You need to be videoed riding your bike from various angles at a consistent cadence. The fitter will mark the ankle, knee (front and side), hip, shoulder and wrist to be able to measure minimum and maximum angles from the video footage to be able to adjust things and get you within recommended parameters. The human eye cannot do that simply by looking at someone one.

Sorry, but this is exactly what is of concern with many bike fitting methods - you are referring to a method that seeks to place you in a position whereby your knee angles etc 'are within recommended parameters'. In other words, they seek to place you within 'a typical range'. Whilst this might be ok for lots of people, it also might be wrong for lots of people. It was certainly wrong for me.

'Doing it yourself is a disaster waiting to happen' is a little strong. If you are patient, and you do your homework, you can get close. One might equally say that having a saddle height determined simply by making sure that you achieve a 'recommended range of angles' is a disaster waiting to happen. It was for me.

If like me you have weird bits of body geometry and issues (eg very long feet, big heel dropper, weak achilles tendon in one ankle, huge pronation, tilted and/or twisted pelvis), then you are not Mr Average and these recommended ranges are more likely to be unsuitable for you. If you are Mr Average with no gait type issues then you may well be ok with the knee angle formulae.

One particular thing that frustrates me is the sort of fit that involves no stationary cycling at all - the one which is based on limb measurements only. This can be horribly inaccurate. It cannot for example differentiate between a toe dipper and a heel dropper, and if you have huge clodhoppers like me, this can make an ENORMOUS difference in required saddle height.

'The human eye cannot do that by looking at someone' - agreed, if what said human eye is trying to do is check whether you achieved a particular angle. However, an experienced human eye CAN watch you on a bike and tell when things are not firing correctly, or are not in line, or just look plain wrong or uncomfortable or unbalanced etc etc.

I re-iterate that I am not trying to say that almost all bike fitters are 'wrong' or 'bad'. I am simply trying to pass on my experience of fitting, which I am guessing is more extensive then a lot of fitting clients; and I am trying to say 'find out more, do some homework, and then make your choice'.

A bike fitter who is using the right equipment to do the measuring etc, should be picking up any loss or increase in power. If they've set you within parameters and it isn't right for you, surely the resultant loss of power would be telling them to adjust your settings until max potential power is attained? In my own experience, the fitter used a turbo with a power meter to show that gains were being made or lost as he made his adjustments. Max power was again checked against overall action to spot those little movements that may indicate the rider is struggling with the set up. My own set up is just outside normal parameters but it is comfortable for me and has increased power output.

neeb

In my experience, the greatest benefit from a really good bike fit is getting the foot/pedal interface sorted out, especially if you have any oddities or asymmetries. I now have forefoot varus wedges, slightly longer than standard pedal axles, and a 3mm wedge under my shorter left leg. This lets my knees track straight (minimal sideways movement during the pedal stroke) and makes my position on the bike much more balanced. A really sound investment and could save your knees in the long term, but you'd never be able to do it yourself. Worth every penny IMHO.

I'm less convinced about saddle position in bike fits, it seems that every fitter wants to do something different with you based on their own pet theories.

p9uma

jouxplan wrote:

p9uma wrote:

@ jouxplan, would it possible to post the link of the bike fitter you used please?

On another, note you have an enviable and impressive fleet of bicycles on your list, how on earth do you get time to ride them all?

Hello,

I used these guys: http://www.thebikewhisperer.co.uk/

As far as my fleet of bikes is concerned , good question! To be fair I generaly only ride the Project 1 and the 5.9. I use the 5.2 in winter. My MTB racing days are long over. My wife keeps telling me to 'get ride of some of these bikes!', but you know how it is.........I love them all! Time is very hard to find, as I am a very busy drummer and I have a day job to boot. But I still train enough that I can enjoy climbing the French Alps every August

Wish I knew how to post a pic of the Project 1 bike - it is a real head turner!

Thank you for the link. I recently had some cleat/ foot pain/ shoe squeak issues, that were driving me to destraction, I went to Cotwold Cycles and Andrew did a mini bike fit with me on my bike, sorted me, the shoes, the bike, the pain and the squeak in about 30 minutes.

Don't listen to the enemy about getting rid of bikes, she doesn't understand.

I too play the drums, in a little three piece blues pub band, do you have gear acquisition syndrome for drums as well?

dazzlers82

i had a bike fit yesterday done at wildside cycles in tonbridge wells kent, it was my first ever fit so im no expert but the guy seemed to no what he was talking about an spent nearly 2 1/2 hours with me changing seats and stems to make my bike right as ive been suffering with bad knee pain, i have used the bike today an although not very far as im tryin to sort the knee out, the bike did actually feel different an i did not feel as bad trying to cycle up the hill to my house, so in my eyes it was £90 well spent

jouxplan

p9uma wrote:

I too play the drums, in a little three piece blues pub band, do you have gear acquisition syndrome for drums as well?

What a coincidence! I play in a Genesis Tribute band - put 'jouxplan' into YouTube and you'll find me Anyway, yes, I have far too much drum equipment and (a) I can't stop buying more and more kit and (b) I never get rid of any of the old kit. Drives Mrs Jouxplan nuts!

p9uma

jouxplan wrote:

p9uma wrote:

I too play the drums, in a little three piece blues pub band, do you have gear acquisition syndrome for drums as well?

What a coincidence! I play in a Genesis Tribute band - put 'jouxplan' into YouTube and you'll find me Anyway, yes, I have far too much drum equipment and (a) I can't stop buying more and more kit and (b) I never get rid of any of the old kit. Drives Mrs Jouxplan nuts!

Tasty playing on those clips, is that a Roland TD 20 your playing? Do you go on the mikedolbear forum?

jouxplan

philthy3 wrote:

A bike fitter who is using the right equipment to do the measuring etc, should be picking up any loss or increase in power. If they've set you within parameters and it isn't right for you, surely the resultant loss of power would be telling them to adjust your settings until max potential power is attained? In my own experience, the fitter used a turbo with a power meter to show that gains were being made or lost as he made his adjustments. Max power was again checked against overall action to spot those little movements that may indicate the rider is struggling with the set up. My own set up is just outside normal parameters but it is comfortable for me and has increased power output.

A fair point, but I think this is a slightly backwards approach, in that it implies that everything is about power, and it is power that is driving the fitter's decisions as to set up. In my experience, a more reliable approach is to fully understand a particular rider's function / physiology, and make sure that the shoe / cleat / wedge / shim interface is spot on, then look at saddle height and for-aft and cockpit area, looking to achieve a smooth and powerful pedalling style whilst ensuring comfort. If the focus is purely on maximum power, there is a risk that some aspect of the set up will be a compromise, giving rise to discomfort or injury or a loss in efficiency over the course of a long ride etc. It is very easy to find yourself pedalling during a bike fit in way that is not really what you do out on the road, and so yes, you can seemingly be in a sweet spot with lots of power.

In my first four fittings, power was the driving force in the various decisions being made. Positions were found that gave me high power. But in the end, these crucified me out on the road. I will always say I rode the 2006 Etape with one leg - I crawled up Alpe d'Huez almost in tears, with my right leg contributing nothing to what should have been a great day out. My saddle height was way high, a result of the fitter noting that my power was maximal at that point. That may have been the case in the fitting, but it did not translate to long rides on the road. If the fitter had focussed more on my unique anatomy / physiology / function etc, things might have been very different and I would not have spent the past 6 seasons riding with no strength and seriously thinking of giving up cycling.

You are quite right though - a good fitter should spot 'little movements that may indicate a rider is struggling with the set up', and if this is the case, it perhaps does not matter if the approach is to focus on maximum power. Personally I am against it, given my experience, but that is not to say it is unsuitable for others.

jouxplan

p9uma wrote:

Tasty playing on those clips, is that a Roland TD 20 your playing? Do you go on the mikedolbear forum?

That's very kind of you! Anyway, yes it's a TD20-kx and no, I have not contributed to that forum. We are in grave danger of being seriously off topic here though

p9uma

jouxplan wrote:

p9uma wrote:

Tasty playing on those clips, is that a Roland TD 20 your playing? Do you go on the mikedolbear forum?

That's very kind of you! Anyway, yes it's a TD20-kx and no, I have not contributed to that forum. We are in grave danger of being seriously off topic here though

Yes, back to bike fit, thanks for the link, I'll check them out, I may give them call if I have anymore grief, they are only an hour away from me.

jouxplan

neeb wrote:

In my experience, the greatest benefit from a really good bike fit is getting the foot/pedal interface sorted out, especially if you have any oddities or asymmetries. I now have forefoot varus wedges, slightly longer than standard pedal axles, and a 3mm wedge under my shorter left leg. This lets my knees track straight (minimal sideways movement during the pedal stroke) and makes my position on the bike much more balanced. A really sound investment and could save your knees in the long term, but you'd never be able to do it yourself. Worth every penny IMHO.

I'm less convinced about saddle position in bike fits, it seems that every fitter wants to do something different with you based on their own pet theories.

Absolutely agree about foot / pedal / interface - it is crucial. If you are patient, you can get pretty close by yourself. I have significant arch support, wedges and shims, and worked out what I needed by following the advice on Steve Hogg's website. I got it pretty much spot on, according to The Bike Whisperer. So it can be done, but it is a long journey and steep learning curve.

Saddle position is certainly secondary to the shoe/pedal interface, but still needs to be in the right ball park. Yes, each fitter I have seen had his own theory on saddle height!!!

99thmonkey

Lets not kid ourselves the margins on bikes and components now with the masses buying everything on CRC or Wiggle and killing the Local Bike Shops means that they have got to make money somehow and bike fits are an easy way to do so, no outlay for stock that sits around just knowledge passed on. Ive had 3 bike fits and they are all different sets of figures so I just use experience and common sense now.

mamba80

i know the guy who does the Koolstof fits and he sorted out a knee issue for a friend, a foot issue on a local junior rider and comes highly recommended, he also prevented me from buying (wasting money) on another frame size the best thing is the free follow up that you get.
The Steve Hogg cleat position article sorted a prior cramping issue i had and that was free - if you ve got the time and fair bit of experience you can perhaps, do it on your own, if not, a decent bikefit can help.