Mini Pump vs CO2

jecooper

Hi guys,

Brand new to road cycling, only had my bike for a fortnight, and I need to get a small emergency kit set up for repairs and punctures. Trying to decide between a mini hand pump or a C02 cartridge contraption. I'm only doing fitness rides at the moment so don't need to be in a huge rush but obvioiusly won't say no to any time saved!

Mini pumps seem to struggle to get up to full pressure and for the £25 that a half decent one will cost I could pick up a C02 pump with around 8 cartridges. Are there any downsides to the C02 pumps which I'm not aware off? Anyone got reccommendations for a good mini pump?

Cheers for the help!

paulus69

I carry a mini pump on my bike and a COS inflator, the rational being that if I get more than one puncture I can still fix myself.

http://www.birzman.com/products.php?src=prod&prod_sn=30
and
http://bontrager.com/model/07330

Headhuunter

Personally I always use a mini pump but it really depends on what you want. If you want something mini enough to fit in the back pocket of a jersey then you're probably better off with a CO2 pump as the very small mini pumps are just rubbish (IME), however if you're happy to carry something a bit longer then you may be better off with a mini pump.

I carry a Topeak Road Morph with me, it's fairly long but can be attached to the frame (although I carry mine shoved down the back of my shorts!). Lezyne make something similar. The Road Morph is like a mini track pump - you fold it out and pump vertically. It even has a pressure guauge. I can relatively easily get a tyre up to 120psi with it and it doesn't take that long.

Weight wise it weighs I think 240g which is certainly more than a CO2 pump but once you factor in a couple of CO2 cannisters the weight difference isn't particularly siginificant and of course a mini pump never runs out of air, so if you're unlucky enough to get 2-3+ punctures in a ride and you only have 2-3 CO2 cannisters then you're on your own, walking in cleats...

Also I've never really used a CO2 cannister thing but I have been told that the best you can do is about 90-100psi, so I can get more air into my tyres with my mini pump.

So in answer to your question, go for this:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... fAodxQYA8w

Or the similar Lezyne model which is a bit more expensive....

jimmcdonnell

Or as a compromise, Bontrager do a mini pump which also accepts CO2 cartridges. No weight difference between it and a carbon mini pump I have. I pump tyres first, then use the CO2 to get close to 120psi, which I couldn't successfully do on the road with either one individually.

slowbike

You can do without a CO2 inflater but I would suggest that a pump is vital ..

Reason being that the CO2 is a one time inflate - once it's used you cannot re-use it. Some inflaters allow you to put a bit of air in the tube first - but others are one time fire - all or nothing ...
It's handy to be able to put a bit of air in the tube before refitting the tyre ...

I have the Lezyne Road Drive Mini ABS Pump - capable of 160psi - takes a bit of work to get there, but it can be used any number of times on a ride - certainly more times than I carry spares/repairs for!
This is the only pump I carry on a pleasure ride. It's fitted beside the bottle cage and is just "on the bike" ... I've used it for my punctures as well as others - it doesn't cost anything to use either ...

I've also got a CO2 inflater - I'll carry this on sportives as I'm interested in my elapsed time so a quick inflate would be handy - but the manual pump will stay on the bike too!

fish156

I used to use CO2, but after my 3rd puncture on one long ride :roll: I borrowed a friend's Lezyne Road Drive. So impressed that I ordered on as soon as I got home and haven't bothered with the CO2 since.

With CO2, how many cannisters do you carry? 1? 2? More? Not an issue with a decent mini pump.

Put it this way, when I now go abroad with the bike I don't bother packing the track pump, the Lezyne is sufficiently good.

P.S. that's another disadvantage with CO2 - you're not supposed to fly with the cannisters.

simon_masterson

CO2 cartridges are an indulgence; they are a consumable that saves time. Whether or not it's worthwhile to purchase said consumable is up to your own wallet and environmental conscience.

If a pump won't get your tyre up to pressure then it's a rubbish pump, so I consider that a non-issue. It may take a little while if it's a mini-pump, but that is the price you pay for compact size. Framefits are the best pumps. If you don't have a bottle on your seat tube (for whatever reason), put one there. If you can fit one under your top tube, put one there. This is very common practice among audax riders, for example.

I'm guessing that you will probably want a mini-pump though, and that's OK because the area that really needs investment is your tyres. Everyone punctures sometimes (great song, that), but apart from keeping the pressure up and avoiding broken bottles you can reduce the numbers by getting some hardy tyres. Gatorskins, Duranos, Marathons, Paselas... Everyone has a favourite.

alfablue

fish156 wrote:

P.S. that's another disadvantage with CO2 - you're not supposed to fly with the cannisters.

you can*, I have.

*rules vary greatly between airlines, and the exact same cylinders may be allowed for one purpose, say a self-inflating life jacket for example, and not another purpose. They go in hold luggage. Invariably the airline staff and baggage handlers are ill-informed (as they were trying to insist I deflated my tyres)

slowbike

alfablue wrote:

Invariably the airline staff and baggage handlers are ill-informed (as they were trying to insist I deflated my tyres)

Hmm - I think I'd want to deflate my tyres anyway - not necessarily completely flat - but just enough to keep they tyre in shape ..
Wouldn't the pressure changes as you ascend/descend have an effect on a ready-to-ride tyre?

alfablue

Slowbike wrote:

alfablue wrote:

Invariably the airline staff and baggage handlers are ill-informed (as they were trying to insist I deflated my tyres)

Hmm - I think I'd want to deflate my tyres anyway - not necessarily completely flat - but just enough to keep they tyre in shape ..
Wouldn't the pressure changes as you ascend/descend have an effect on a ready-to-ride tyre?

no, aircraft are pressurised at around 6800 feet; you can cycle higher than that.

slowbike

alfablue wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

alfablue wrote:

Invariably the airline staff and baggage handlers are ill-informed (as they were trying to insist I deflated my tyres)

Hmm - I think I'd want to deflate my tyres anyway - not necessarily completely flat - but just enough to keep they tyre in shape ..
Wouldn't the pressure changes as you ascend/descend have an effect on a ready-to-ride tyre?

no, aircraft are pressurised at around 6800 feet; you can cycle higher than that.

I'm not Lance Armstrong ... I'm not High !!

alfablue

:P It's a "natural" high

Wunnunda

An emergency decompression might cause some 'issues' however....

ricklilley

Wunnunda wrote:

An emergency decompression might cause some 'issues' however....

If your on a flight that has an emergency decompression, the last thing you'll be worried about is your tubes popping.

lancejambo

ricklilley wrote:

Wunnunda wrote:

An emergency decompression might cause some 'issues' however....

If your on a flight that has an emergency decompression, the last thing you'll be worried about is your tubes popping.

hahaha lol

i just carry to canisters

jecooper

Cheers for the thoughts guys (even the slight digression into emergency flight safety procedures!) seems the best option is to pick up a mini pump for now then consider C02 if I ever start riding sportives, races etc

and thanks for the reccommendations, sounds like the lezyne range is a safe bet, will take a look.

cheers!

alfablue

I too vote for mini pump. I use the Blackburn Turbo Morph (like the road morph) for touring, and you can achieve high pressures "easily".

This is what I wrote when the topic came up before

alfablue wrote:

I would not rely on CO2 only. I got a combined mini-pump and CO2 inflater from Planet-X. It is very small and fits beside the bottle cage. I take one cylinder (which lives in the axle of my FSA chainset). The pump, like most mini pumps, will be a pain if I actually have to use it, but I know I will get to a "get you home" pressure if needs be. However, because I use good tyres and keep my pressures up (and check often), I don't get punctures. :twisted:

Its still going strong, has been pressed into action a few times now and has worked flawlessly. I take 2 extra cyclinders.

One thing to note, after inflating with CO2 you will find your tubes go soft in a day or two, so reinflate at home with your track pump (might be the molecules are smaller and squeeze out, or summink).

g00se

fish156 wrote:

I used to use CO2, but after my 3rd puncture on one long ride :roll: I borrowed a friend's Lezyne Road Drive. So impressed that I ordered on as soon as I got home and haven't bothered with the CO2 since.

Lezyne do a Road Drive pump with an option to attach a CO2 canister to it. Best of both?

agg25

Its still going strong, has been pressed into action a few times now and has worked flawlessly. I take 2 extra cyclinders.

One thing to note, after inflating with CO2 you will find your tubes go soft in a day or two, so reinflate at home with your track pump (might be the molecules are smaller and squeeze out, or summink).[/quote]


Ha, I'd like to know how CO2 would have a smaller molecular size than O2 when it's the same but with a carbon atom attached to it? 3>2 :-)

alfablue

agg25 wrote:

(might be the molecules are smaller and squeeze out, or summink).


Ha, I'd like to know how CO2 would have a smaller molecular size than O2 when it's the same but with a carbon atom attached to it? 3>2 :-)

well I'm very impressed that you inflate your tyres with O2! Does that make them roll better? ;-)

t.m.h.n.e.t

agg25 wrote:

Its still going strong, has been pressed into action a few times now and has worked flawlessly. I take 2 extra cyclinders.

One thing to note, after inflating with CO2 you will find your tubes go soft in a day or two, so reinflate at home with your track pump (might be the molecules are smaller and squeeze out, or summink).

Borrowed from elsewhere.

CO2 molecules are more permeable and soluable in butyl rubber than other molecules in air. Thus when a tube is filled with air, the CO2 molecules will tend to permeate and leak through the rubber faster than the other components of other gases in the air. This leaves other gasses such as Nitrogen and Oxygen (amongst others) to linger around longer. When a tube is filled with just CO2, the rate of leakage is the same as that of the CO2 leaking out through the tube filled with air but since there's only CO2 to leak, the tube will go flat faster.

BTW, CO2 doesn't necessarily leak through rubber faster because of its size but because of how the molecules in rubber attract CO2 better than Oxygen or Nitrogen. As a result, the CO2 permeates the rubber which then swells and thus allows more molecules to escape.

agg25

I see where you're going there, but nitrogen is smaller than CO2 as is O2 which is the main component of air, so either way, it doesn't make sense.

Found this -

Molecular Size N2 smallest, O2 next CO2 biggest.

The loss of CO2 through the rubber is called permeation. CO2 permeates the rubber faster since it is more soluble in the rubber than the N2 and O2.

This is because it is a polar molecule (slightly positve on one end and negative on the other end). This allows the CO2 to wiggle into the rubber better. (good science eh).

This effect is well known and used to separate CO2 from many gases. High CO2 permeability is common to alot of polymers."

Well there you go.

t.m.h.n.e.t

It's not about size

erm... :oops:

CO2 molecules are more permeable and soluable in butyl rubber than other molecules in air. Thus when a tube is filled with air, the CO2 molecules will tend to permeate and leak through the rubber faster than the other components of other gases in the air. This leaves other gasses such as Nitrogen and Oxygen (amongst others) to linger around longer. When a tube is filled with just CO2, the rate of leakage is the same as that of the CO2 leaking out through the tube filled with air but since there's only CO2 to leak, the tube will go flat faster.

BTW, CO2 doesn't necessarily leak through rubber faster because of its size but because of how the molecules in rubber attract CO2 better than Oxygen or Nitrogen. As a result, the CO2 permeates the rubber which then swells and thus allows more molecules to escape.

All I know is, co2 is brilliant as a get home rescue

CiB

If you do go CO2 you can buy them in bike shps at two or three quid a pop, or buy the exact same thing from online catering supplies companies for a lot less. I just bought a lifetime's supply (box of 30) for £20 incl postage. It'll be interesting to see if they hold their pressure over time.

alfablue

I bought some from tyreinflators.co.uk 20 quid for a box of 50 12g (which I find sufficient for 700x23 tyre).

Would always take a pump, but as I said above my pump is dual purpose, so no worries.

slowbike

alfablue wrote:

agg25 wrote:

(might be the molecules are smaller and squeeze out, or summink).


Ha, I'd like to know how CO2 would have a smaller molecular size than O2 when it's the same but with a carbon atom attached to it? 3>2 :-)

well I'm very impressed that you inflate your tyres with O2! Does that make them roll better? ;-)

Signal is a bit patchy in places ... should've filled with Vodafone - or for greater data bandwidth - 3 ... !!

jonomc4

when I carry a pump - which I don't do very often I just have a co2 pump in my saddle bag - weight negligible. I also carry a second inner tube - screw everything else I just don't want to be fixing a puncture all day and I am very lazy. If out on a long ride I will carry two cannisters and a self sticking patch - but that is very rare.

Mind you I think I am just tempting fate - I have only had one puncture in the last two years of riding most days.

(as I go home I shall puncture now - but that is what I have a wife for - she can come and get me)