Groups on country lanes - riding two abreast and more

jibberjim

Crescent wrote:

to use a cycle path when appropriate to do so.

Remember a club run is very unlikely to be going the 12mph that cycle paths are designed for.

Wunnunda

Cycle paths are for people who ride bikes, not for cyclists. As a means of keeping young kids and pootlers out of traffic they are great and a vast improvement on a few years back but for anyone capable of a turn of speed they are useless.

crescent

FJS wrote:

The problem here is the poor design of the joke that are cycle paths here - if they would be wide enough, don't go up and down pavements with twists and turns and crazy chicanes around lampposts, not full of rubbish, wouldn't give priority to every single small side road, and not shared with pedestrians, groups of club riders could actually use them. I'm sure most motorists, and even many occasional family cyclists think they're fine for all cyclists, but that doesn't make it so.

Totally agree with this. Many (most) of the cycle paths I use are shocking. There is definitely more to a cycle path than throwing a tin of coloured paint along a gutter at the side of the road. Unfortunately, until you've ridden on them you don't realise how bad they are. The other side of this is that many of the roads are no better!

jibberjim wrote:

Crescent wrote:

to use a cycle path when appropriate to do so.

Remember a club run is very unlikely to be going the 12mph that cycle paths are designed for.

Again, agree 100%, although I thought the limit was 18mph, but even so this is easily exceeded by a group of riders and would constitute a hazard to the group and other users of the cycle path. Like I said - a grey area - what is deemed appropriate by a cyclist is not seen as appropriate by other road users. Unfortunately, it is only really people who cycle and drive who can appreciate both sides of the argument.

bails87

I think I read somewhere that the designs are based* on a cyclist doing 12mph, but the Highway Code says you shouldn't use them if you're going over 18mph.

*It's easy to argue that many cycle lanes aren't based on any cyclists at all:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/w ... the-month/

wod1

Riding 2 a breast also comes up locally for horses. Motorists are only happy if every road user slower than them was not on the road.

http://www.thisisgrimsby.co.uk/Horse-ri ... story.html

If these young horse riders rode 1 horse wide all that would happen is that most cars would pass in the face of on coming traffic only leaving a tiny amount of space between their car and the horse.

With regards to Cycle paths - I have a number of shared pavement cycle paths on my commute but leave them for the large amount of pedestrians and young school children that use them. For me to maintain 16mph+ on the shared cycle path would be very difficult and dangerous. I am of the view that more cyclists on the normal road is a good thing. Are we going to have 100% coverage of cycle paths that are of decent speed/surface to every location in the country - not a chance.

Gazzaputt

I think main point of the title has been missed here?

I'm club rider and always ensure on narrow single country lanes the group ride single file especially with those with blind corners.

I have met two clubs local to who straddle two a breast on single country lanes. Both times this near caused a collision and once the guy had a good 250 yards to get over!

Woolwich CC and Sidcup Cycles Rides I'm pointing the finger at you both.

robjl

On blind corners you could ring your bell or give a shout as you approach such a blind corner. Not ideal but you wouldn't have to do it that often

t.m.h.n.e.t

robjl wrote:

On blind corners you could ring your bell or give a shout as you approach such a blind corner. Not ideal but you wouldn't have to do it that often

You'll need to explain how that would be of any help to oncoming traffic. Particularly when it has an engine?

Mr Will

I don't think it's been mentioned yet but part of the reason for riding two-abreast is to make it easier for cars to pass - a double line of cyclists 5 long is less than half the length of 10 cyclists single file.

diy

but not as good as two groups of 5. with a passing gap between them. Motorists interpret 2 a breast as a lack of courtesy. I'm not saying they are right, but it will influence their behavior. Add also the fact that 2 a breast gives fewer escape options should you need them. Sorry but there is no possible argument that riding two a breast is safer, unless you are doing more than 10mph on a road with solid lines and as such would force an overtaking driver to commit an offence by overtaking you, but then only if it causes him to hold back.

Few drivers know the rule about the definition of a slow vehicle and assume all cycles can be passed on solid white lines anyway. There is a section near me on a down hill where I regularly hit 40mph 50 limit with solid white lines. Plenty of drivers cross the white line to overtake me, thinking its legal because I am a cycle.

jgsi

I know which group I could get past ... safely and easily... and without cursing..

gezebo

I remember driving up a steep narrow road near Lake Vyrnwy. A group of road cyclists came barrelling over a blind crest taking over the whole road. I stopped (easily) and the first few squeezed either side of me as they didn't have a hope of stopping. The last few crashed into the verge,thankfully not me as the speed they were going they would have caused damage to my car. Some of them then started shouting at me for causing their crash (I saw at least 1 bent wheel).

I still, often see similar acts of blind stupidity by mainly group riders near me as it's thankfully very quiet so ideal for road cycling. What amazes me is that the vast majority of them drive here to ride their bikes! How they get to and from home without killing themselves is beyond me.

Tom Dean

diy wrote:

but not as good as two groups of 5. with a passing gap between them.

Do you really want to encourage motorists to look for gaps in the middle of your group to dive in to? Two abreast means overtakers have to overtake properly, not squeeze alongside a single line.

We do have a right to be on the road diy. It is not our job to get out of the way whenever anyone wants us to.

diy

I'm a cyclist too, I get my fair share of idiots cutting me up, but you are deluded in thinking you will change the thought process of a driver being held up by a group of cyclists who are taking up more space than the driver thinks necessary. By all means ride defensively, but you have to know when to use the space you create and when you are putting yourself at risk. I used to teach advanced motorcyclists, for many years and I wouldn't dream of doing some of the things people propose here. Just not safe to use yourself as a road block.

Bozman

I'd say that the issue with two a breast isn't overtaking it's on-coming traffic. If you don't ride down lanes you won't have a bloody clue, I get near misses on my own, double the width and there's accident that will happen, not waiting to happen.

butcher of bakersfield

Bozman wrote:

I'd say that the issue with two a breast isn't overtaking it's on-coming traffic. If you don't ride down lanes you won't have a bloody clue, I get near misses on my own, double the width and there's accident that will happen, not waiting to happen.

I ride country lanes all the time (it's the only reason I bought a rode bike), and when you come to a bend you make sure you can see what's coming the other way, or you slow down until you can. It doesn't really matter if you're two abreast or single file. Common sense wins every time by never putting yourself in a position where you're blindly throwing yourself into the oncoming traffic.

You DO have to be very aware that not all traffic uses that common sense. I have now stopped using the scenic (and what should really be relaxing) route to work both on the bike and in the car, because it's just too stressful. If you think the lanes are bad on a Sunday afternoon, try them on a Monday morning when they offer a valid alternative to sitting at the lights. The amount of idiots that come round blind bends at speeds they clearly cannot control is unbelievable, forcing you into the verge and hoping you don't lose a wing mirror.

Never experienced it from cyclists myself, but I don't bump into that many - the odd lone rider here and there. And the OP doesn't present himself well (almost crashing into every rider he meets - even he has to agree there seems to be a pattern there!), but I'm sure it happens occasionally.

Listening is an interesting thing however. Same reason pedestrians step out in front of us, sometimes we put a lot of confidence in senses outside of our vision. Which is a great attribute to have, but I sometimes have to remind myself to make sure I look too.

lakeland

This is one of my pet hates, especially when they don't move out of the way. I don't think the argument of taking up as much room as a car stands up, there is a large speed difference so it's not really comparable! Fair enough on a decent sized and straight road though...

Tom Dean

diy wrote:

I'm a cyclist too, I get my fair share of idiots cutting me up, but you are deluded in thinking you will change the thought process of a driver being held up by a group of cyclists who are taking up more space than the driver thinks necessary. By all means ride defensively, but you have to know when to use the space you create and when you are putting yourself at risk. I used to teach advanced motorcyclists, for many years and I wouldn't dream of doing some of the things people propose here. Just not safe to use yourself as a road block.

So is any road user one cannot immediately overtake 'a road block'? I am not saying two abreast is right 100% of the time, it depends on the circumstance. I guess your advanced motorcyclists don't get overtaken on country lanes much so I don't see how your experience is relevant.

diy

Tom Dean wrote:

I guess your advanced motorcyclists don't get overtaken on country lanes much so I don't see how your experience is relevant.

I'm not suggesting I'm an expert on cycling road safety, or even motorcycle road safety for that matter, I'm saying cyclists are considering taking up "defensive" positions in the belief it will influence other road users to change their behavior. It might do, but it might not (more likely) and if it doesn't you have to assess the risk that the greater exposure now puts on the rider. The similarity is that motorbikes have similar vulnerabilities and similar road profile, they too are simply not big enough to force traffic to behave a certain way. Unlike cyclists though, when things go wrong they can just accelerate out of the way or overtake the car in front to get away from which ever nutcase it determined to kill them.

But there is a bit more to advanced riding than opening the throttle - a lot of the theory is about hazard priority and putting yourself furthest away from the biggest dangers. That applies to cyclists as well as bikers.

Tom Dean

If there's no room to overtake, you may as well position yourself so as to leave no doubt about the fact. This influences the behaviour of a following motorist who may have thought there was room to pass if you were in the gutter. Your suggestion that a defensive position is more dangerous seems to be influenced by the idea that some motorists are determined to kill you, which is obviously ridiculous.

dee4life2005

When I'm out driving and I encounter a club ride, I certainly prefer it when they are riding two abreast - or more, provided they're not straddling the centre line. I don't see how it's any different to coming up behind a tractor for example, similar speeds (usually) and road space taken up after all.

A wider group is shorter, and therefore makes it easier to overtake.

Having said that, it really depends on the road and the amount of traffic.

confused@BR

At this time of year the farmers are trying to get the (late) harvest in. The size of some of the plant moving along narrow lanes has to be experienced to be fully appreciated. They are huge and need avoiding at all costs, if they touch you, you will know it. Meeting one in a lane, you can forget about 'my priority' and look for a gap in the hedgerow, passing space, T junction, etc. to let them pass. Discretion is very much the true path of valour.