Sluggish Bike

BrianSnail

I bought a £3,000 bike back in July. On its first ride I had massive pains in my upper thighs so set it as near as possible to my other two road bikes to no avail - still had the pain, and when I rode it felt as though I was putting a massive amount of power down for very little movement (average speed on familiar circuits down 5-10kph). Eventually took the bike back to manufacturers (at a cost of £100) where they said that I had the wrong sized frame which they changed while I was there - rebuilt the bike onto a larger frame. The bike did feel better but I only tested it on a short ride. Yesterday I rode the bike for the first time over a 50 mile hilly circuit and was down on average speed by about 5kph. Very still day so no wind factor. Did get some pain again but it was not as severe and it went away after a while. While riding it feels like I'm pushing through glue, really hard work. In places where I am normally flying I am having to push hard to keep any momentum and on the slightest rise the speed is scrubbing off dramatically. The bike has Mavic Open Pro rims with Gatorskin tyres. I ride over 10,000 km per year on an old 105 alluminium bike and a Trek Madone - I can understand the sluggish feel against the Trek but certainly not against the Ally Bike which is heavy in comparison but is quite quick, even when loaded. I can only think now that the problem lies with the Wheels/Tyres but would value any advice from more experienced heads than mine.

RoadMeridaBen

Sounds like you bumped into a headwind on your ride

I would stick with the stuff your using now, its all about the engine not the bike...
says snail in your name anyway :P

Jez mon

Are the brakes rubbing? What pressure are the tyres at?

BrianSnail

Strangely enough it was a very still day in the Peak District yesterday. Tyre pressures are at 100 psi. I did actually get off the bike to check the tyres weren't down and that there was good freewheeling. It's a very hard thing to describe but I seem to put twice as much effort in for the same movement. I bought the bike for some of the longer Audaxes and light touring but the way it feels at the moment a short Audax would be a problem. I am not a fast rider (hence snail) but I am able to keep going and on the other two bikes I don't seem to have to put too much effort to keep my average speed (23-25kph) but on the new bike its down to 19kph. Could the wheels/tyres cause this?

night_porter

You can always rule out the wheels or tyres by swapping them with one of your other bikes and see where the problem shifts to. Personally I would swap the wheels/tyres completely with the Trek and then ride both over your known circuit with accurate timing.

If there is any difference then swap the tyres over and try again while still recording the timing.

I use Gators on one bike and Ultremos on another and the difference is noticeable to me but it doesn't make that much difference.

dw300

I was reading up about tyres last night and Gatorskins got slated as far as feel and speed went. Never ridden them myself though.

Also, went out yesterday, weather forecast said light to no wind .. but there was at least a 10mph wind.

BrianSnail

Thanks for the info. The Trek/New bike wheel swap will be quite straight forward because they are both 10 speed Ultegra so I think thats the next elimination stage. I have a nice 20 mile mixed circuit to compare on. Can't think what else it could be. Very frustrating

Jez mon

Do the cranks turn freely?

I have gatorskins on my poor weather bike and whilst they aren't the quickest tyre about, I wouldn't say they made 5km/h difference

BrianSnail

I have Bontrager on the Trek with Race Light wheels (very fast even for a Snail), and Michelin Carbon Krylion on Mavic CXP33. I have not had this problem on any of my bikes before, I usually get overtaken on roads where there are a few cyclists out, but yesterday I was being overtaken by Tesco Moutain Bikes with overweight riders on them. I had plenty of power in my legs but it wasn't transferring to forward movement. Someone said put the saddle up a bit - is there any merit in this? It is slightly lower than on the Trek but its where the bikefit said it should be!

thescouselander

Jez mon wrote:

Do the cranks turn freely?

I have gatorskins on my poor weather bike and whilst they aren't the quickest tyre about, I wouldn't say they made 5km/h difference

Have to agree with this - I've found Gatorskins to be pretty good in the past - I wouldn't have thought they'd be the problem.

BrianSnail

Just checked the cranks. Feels slightly 'tighter' than the other two but no resistance as such. They are new so this could account maybe account for the tight feeling. The whole drivetrain is Ultegra.

neeb

Must be something to do with the bike setup or your position on it. Maybe the saddle position in relation to the BB is way out, and/or you are catching much more air due to increased frontal area. The tyres won't help, but that can't be the whole story.

When you were trying to replicate the position on your old bike, did you take into account things like seat tube angle? You need to get the saddle in the same position relative to the bottom bracket, which might not involve the same position on the saddle rails or the same height measured up the seat tube. Once you have done this, measure reach to the bars from the tip of the saddle, and then saddle to bar drop by putting a straight edge across the saddle, marking on the wall with a pencil, and then doing the same thing with the bars.

centimani

Pain in the thighs and feeling sluggish ?...saddle too low ?, that'd give classic burning thighs.

Bear in mind, we're human...and not machines. I know sometimes i feel ok, but as soon as i get on a bike, its just not there, i feel like i'm riding through treacle. The body's a finely tuned piece of kit, just a bit of a virus or tiredness will soon show itself when you're exercising.

Mechanically, as mentioned, but i;d add, what hubs are you running ?, do the wheels spin free ? are they new as well ?' My Fulcrums when new just wouldnt spin freely, newly packed grease i assumed. They were horrible when new. Thats just got to free up with a few miles.

BrianSnail

Hi Neeb - I wonder if you have hit a big nail here! My two old bikes are 56, and Enigma told me from measurements I sent them that I needed a 56 - I did want a custom built but they said I would be wasting money as there would be very little difference between custom/peg. After I complained the first time they invited me back. I took my Trek (which is very comfortable) with me. They looked at both bikes and decided that the saddle position on the Trek was 'too far back' and 'too high' (the saddle is back as far as it will go). Because of this they said that I needed a larger frame so built up a 58/59 frame which put the saddle to the middle of the rails. They said that this was the best position for me. They also set the saddle to 74.5 as opposed to 75.5 (Trek), supposedly all this was worked out using Bikefit. I'm not sure about seat tube angles? but I do understand what you are saying. Although I have tried to 'set up the same' The two do feel very different, plus I get no pains on the Trek or the Ally bikes but do on the Enigma - I think this may be down to the amount of power I am having to put down to keep a reasonable average speed. On slight down gradients the bike is quite fast, but as soon as there's a levelling off or (even slight) uphill it seems to grind to a halt and I'm downing gears for dear life where even on the old heavy Ally I would keep momentum. I really can't afford to take the bike back to Enigma again (£100 round trip), and I honestly don't think there is a fault with the bike, so to me it has to be set up or wheels/tyres. I did read somewhere on a bike test that the test bike was transformed once different wheels were put in! Its all very confusing, frustrating and disappointing considering the money I have spent.

Mikey23

did you not try before you purchased? I think i would want some pretty clear expectations before laying down 3k on a new bike. And without a bikefit? And with two other roadbikes already?

BrianSnail

Hi centimani. They are Ambrosio. Whole bike is brand new. I did ask for Ultegra hubs but they said they couldn't get any. The wheels do seem free enough, certainly coming to a stop slowly rather than quickly, like when a brake is rubbing.

BrianSnail

I rode the same model bike before I ordered which was fine. When I ordered the bike I was told to send in my measurements from an online chart. From these measurements I was told that I didn't need custom. When I collected the bike I was measured again and they input into a bikefit programme and set up the bike accordingly. I was not given a test ride at that time. The first time I rode it I knew something was wrong, hence the return trip. I did ride the rebuid but not very far and on quite flat heavily trafficked roads. It certainly felt better at that time but once I got it home and into the hills the problems re-appeared. I wanted this bike for Audax/Light Touring to replace my very ageing Ally bike. The Trek not suitable for either. If you like it was an early retirement present and I hope(d) to spend many long hours in the saddle. Unless I can get this problem sorted then this just won't happen. I put all my faith into Enigma, perhaps wrongly as it turns out.

neeb

As you were so much more efficient on the Trek, I would first try to exactly replicate that setup/position on the new bike and ignore what Enigma told you from the Bikefit figures, especially if you have been cycling 10,000km a year without issues (such as knee or back pain). It may be that you will want to tweak this later on and that it would eventually be beneficial to adapt to a new setup (which might involve going through a period of being slower before you are faster), but to begin with it would be useful to check that you are able to ride the new bike the same way as you rode the old one.

The reason I mentioned seat tube angle is that different angles can change the way you measure things like saddle height and setback, depending on how you do it. E.g. if the saddle is in the same position relative to the bottom bracket (which is what you want) and you measure saddle height directly along the length of the seat tube, you will get different figures depending on the seat tube angle, as you will be measuring to a different point on the saddle... So you need to ignore the seat tube and measure saddle position (both height and setback) relative to the BB. Measure the length of the saddle exactly and mark the half-way point (the exact middle) with a pen or bit of tape. Then measure the height of the saddle from the centre of the BB to the bottom of a straight edge placed across that line on the saddle. Measure distance behind the BB using a plumb line and a ruler. Unfortunately these measurements can be very fiddly (try to use the same bit of floor, as slight slopes can make quite a difference) but it's worth the effort. If you can set up the new bike exactly the same as the old one and you still have issues, there must be some other problem, but I doubt this is the case...

Things like new hubs won't make a detectable difference, the amount of resistance is tiny compared to what you are putting in when you are riding.

BrianSnail

Thanks neeb, I'll do all this tomorrow - do millimetres make BIG differences? I do get some back pain (no knee trouble) but this comes and goes during a ride, and I have suffered this for many years. Long before cycling came on the scene. I did think about getting a professional bike fit done independently, but this costs £150 - £200 which isn't too bad, if it works, but if it doesn't ...... hell I've spent a fortune on this bike already. Well I tell a lie there - my wife has spent the money, like I said its a retirement present. She's probably gutted that I can't ride off into the sunset (or rainstorm!)

neeb

BrianSnail wrote:

do millimetres make BIG differences?

2 or 3 mm probably won't, but 5 - 10mm or more can...