Accident Advice

Topaxci

Complicated one, but I'm sure we'll be able to boil in down to something simple.

I was involved in a collision last week on my way home from work.
Here:
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll=52.651682,1.256433&spn=0.000052,0.038409&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=52.65344,1.259987&panoid=l_F_WrP70bhPHIrRn3krCg&cbp=12,135,,0,0

I was in the left hand land going straight over at the lights. Unfortunatley my recollection of events ends on approach the white line (a little forward of the google maps shot) and starts again looking up at the sky with a paramedic standing over waving fingers in my face.
10 days later none of this memory has returned.

The police and tell me I rode into the passenger side of a car turning right from the oncoming direction. Smashing the side window with my head and ending up in a heap on the road.
There were lots of "witnesses" but only two who actually saw the impact and could give comment on the traffic lights.

On my approach I know both my lights and the next set down the road were green. I saw the next set change to red at the end of my memory but my light was still green. The oncoming traffic would have also been on a green light for straight over, but the right turn is controlled by a filter light which would only come on once my light would have changed to red.

The driver of the car says the filter light was on. The other witness was a car turning out from the left junction who has told police that her left filter light was on at the time of the incident. However she has not yet moved her car (and apparently didn't do so for the next 20mins). There was no traffic behind me to witness my lights, this is rare but there was a slower cyclist behind me who would have been holding traffic up, he then stopped at the scene after the incident.

The police officer has been very freindly and helpful, he stayed and check the light sequences and personally took my bike to my house. However he feels constrained by the witness evidence which basically 2:1 says that I jumped a red light. He's assured me the police are very unlikely to take any action against me but thats not what I'm concerned about.

I do NOT run red lights. I always stop. I even stop at red pedistration crossings when there is no-one there.
I know my light was green at the final approach. Even if it had changed from the last point of my memory and I ran amber (which is unlikely but I cannot prove to myself) then there would still have not been sufficient time for the car to pull away and cross halfway across my lane in order for the impact to have occured.
In my mind the car must have started turning across my path before the filter light came on.

But I have no proof, no evidence and no witnesses.

At this point can I do anything or do I just need to chalk this up to really bad experience :?:

Damage overview:
5 days in hospital - fractured lower spine, eye socket. Lots of muscule damage and bruising mainly to right side. Lots of drugs and pains but should heal over time.
2 day old CAAD8 - miraclously light - scuffed shifters and very sight wobble to rear wheel.
2 day old helmet - early retirement.

Bonus point to first person recommed a camera (oh for 20:20 digitally recorded hindsight about now )

bails87

First off, get well soon. If you really didn't jump the red (and I'm not accusing you of lying) then that means the driver DID RLJ, right? I?n which case he/she owes you for damage to your property.

Are you a BC/CTC member? Will you be covered if the driver wants to chase you for the damage to the car?

Can you put up a sign at the site asking for witnesses, or go back at the time that the accident happened and ask drivers/cyclists who stop at the lights?

How many independent witnesses say you RLJed and how many say you didn't? The driver and you are both not independent witnesses.

Essentially, without witnesses there's nothing you can do. Could it have been that you went through as the light went amber and the driver got to the junction as the filter light went green, allowing them to keep up speed through the right turn. So you were very late going through and he/she was very early going through the junction? The signal timings might allow for a car doing 40mph going through the junction before turning the filter light to green, but not a cyclist doing 15mph.

Just to clarify, the driver was heading North West and made a right turn towards Asda? Does the filter light definitely not allow cars to turn right there? At lots of junctions filter lights give a general green meaning you can turn right if it's clear, and then a 'filter' green (a green arrow) to allow traffic to turn right with a red light showing to oncoming traffic.

Could the driver who you collided with have had a general green rather than a "it's clear, put your foot down" green filter light?

rolf_f

Only this week I had an identical but near miss incident. In my case, the green for me is a very short sequence and it is immediately preceeded by another light. If I am at the front of that queue or no more than one fast vehicle back, I can Cavendish my way to the light before it turns red. The crossing is covered by a box junction. In my case the driver of the car was following a queue of other cars that were crossing on a right filter green. He crossed on red but I don't think he even saw the light change because he was watching the barely moving queue infront of him. I'm not sure that the look he gave me was shock or annoyance at me for supposedly running a red but it does highlight that right filters can be a menace

I'd concur with Bails that you need to check the sequencing. I know the sequencing of my light because I use that right filter on my way home. If I had had an accident, whether or not I had witnesses, I suspect I'd be able to make a pretty persuasive case about that incident based on how I know that light set works.

cookdn

Sorry to hear about your collision. Sounds like your bike came off much more lightly than you. Hope you heal quickly.

Regarding witnesses from your description there is only one who is independent, it is their account that you should focus on. I'm not saying that either you or the driver of the car you collided is inherently unreliable, but by your own recollection of the event is understandably incomplete and the driver of the car is likely to say whatever they think is going to keep them out of trouble with both their insurer and the police.

To me this looks like it could be a SMIDSY. I assume the red line below to be your direction of travel.



On the basis that the lights haven't been changed since the Google Street View footage was taken then the filter light in the opposite direction is not required for vehicles to turn right across your path.



Sounds like the worst case scenario is that you inadvertently amber-gambled your traffic light. However this doesn't absolve the car driver of their responsibility as a green light (filter or not) only allows them to proceed across the path of oncoming traffic if it is safe to do so.

First forget about any Police involvement. They will only investigate if they think that there is negligence provable beyond all reasonable doubt and by the sounds of it there isn't enough evidence (either way). Civil court is a completely different matter as negligence is tested on balance of probability. The car you collided with is damaged, consequently it is highly likely that the insurer of the car will attempt to recover the costs of repair from you.
Hopefully you have third-party liability insurance that will handle this. If you haven't already, report the collision to them so that you have a claim reference to pass to the motorists insurance.

As Bails and Rolf suggested go back to the junction and carefully examine the sequence and phasing of the lights. The key is the state of filter light observed by the independent witness. What is the state of the other lights at this point in the sequence? You may need some help to build up a complete picture.

Hope this helps.

Best regards
David

Topaxci

Firstly thanks for all your replys and the obvious effort put into them, it is appreciated.

Just to clarify, the additional pictures provided by cookdn are very helpful and do depict the events. The driver would not have RLJ'd but would have been waiting in the filter box to turn right into Asda (the position of the Corsa in the second picture).

Somehow in my mind I failed to account for this filter area to quote myself:

would still have not been sufficient time for the car to pull away and cross halfway across my lane in order for the impact to have occured

I saw the car back behind the white line, while in reality he would have been in the filter box ready to make the turn. From the picture the police painted there were several cars waiting to make the turn it was not a case of driver speeding up to juction and turning.

I have both cycled and driven this junction hundreds of times over the last 7 years so am happy I know the light sequences. Though I do want to go back now and check how fast the filter comes on after the change in my light. The current scenario I have would make this almost instantaneous.
The witnesses filter light was to make a left turn out of Asda, this would come on at the same time as the right filter light.

I think this is worse case scenario where the driver didn't see me and maybe started his turn a little before the filter thinking he was clear. My memory doesn't recall seeing the car, and I obviously didn't until the last second and my light must have changed as I was right upon them. I think we were both in the wrong place at the wrong timings and got a very nasty shock out of it.

I have third party personal cover so hopefully that should be able to take care of anything that arises. The impression I got from the police was the driver was happy to settle to repairs himself, without involving insurers, but even so the advice to make them aware at this point is probably good.
Thinking it may be worth getting proper cycle insurance now though. Peace of mind and all that for the future.

I suppose I am just trying to work out exactly what happened to satisfy myself but in reality the all I'm going to get is a best guess based on the bits I do know.

Will go back and check lights when I can get around better, at the moment can walk/shuffle about 100m or so. Maybe a month or two till I'm back on a bike, but will get there.

cookdn

Topaxci wrote:

Firstly thanks for all your replys and the obvious effort put into them, it is appreciated.

No problem. It always helps having multiple perspectives on these types of things.

Topaxci wrote:

The driver would not have RLJ'd but would have been waiting in the filter box to turn right into Asda (the position of the Corsa in the second picture).

Not sure I understand. Based on your path and the location of ASDA, wouldn't the car that you collided with started in the position of the silver Golf Estate?

Topaxci wrote:

I have third party personal cover so hopefully that should be able to take care of anything that arises. The impression I got from the police was the driver was happy to settle to repairs himself, without involving insurers, but even so the advice to make them aware at this point is probably good.

Its good that you are protected financially. However the driver wanting to deal with the damage themselves waves a red flag to me. Either they only have third party cover themselves or they aren't super confident about their version of events.

Topaxci wrote:

Thinking it may be worth getting proper cycle insurance now though. Peace of mind and all that for the future.

I've come to the same conclusion. A British Cycling Ride membership gives you third-party liability cover and access to legal assistance for both fault and non-fault incidents. Ride membership is £24 per year but there is currently £10 cashback through Quidco for new memberships.

I believe that British Cycling will assist with non-member incidents on a case-by-case basis. There are also specialist solicitors that can assist on a no-win, no-fee basis if you feel the motorist is liable (even partly) and want to claim compensation. I spoke to Cycle Aid (aka Simon A. Holt & Co. Solicitors) about my incident at the beginning of August. They were very helpful and gave me some useful advice.

Best regards
David

Topaxci

cookdn wrote:

Topaxci wrote:

The driver would not have RLJ'd but would have been waiting in the filter box to turn right into Asda (the position of the Corsa in the second picture).

Not sure I understand. Based on your path and the location of ASDA, wouldn't the car that you collided with started in the position of the silver Golf Estate?

Sorry yes do mean the silver Golf. I added the bit in brackets when I re-read my post and thought I should try to add more clarity. And clearly failed by name checking the wrong car :oops:

I blame head trauma. :twisted:

slowbike

cookdn wrote:

Topaxci wrote:

I have third party personal cover so hopefully that should be able to take care of anything that arises. The impression I got from the police was the driver was happy to settle to repairs himself, without involving insurers, but even so the advice to make them aware at this point is probably good.

Its good that you are protected financially. However the driver wanting to deal with the damage themselves waves a red flag to me. Either they only have third party cover themselves or they aren't super confident about their version of events.

Warning flag to me too ...

Sorry - but if you'd headbutted (and damaged) the nearside of my car - and I thought I was in the right then I would be claiming off your insurance to get it repaired - nothing vindictive - but why should I be out of pocket for your mistake ...
By not taking this course of action I have to wonder what the motive of the driver is ...
1) it wasn't their car - they had it "without permission"
2) they don't have insurance/driving licence (although I'm sure the police would've checked - so prob not)
3) they're kind and probably don't realise you're covered by insurance
4) they were in the wrong - turning right across you ...

Of the above I think no. 4 is the most likely.