Tubless. Put my mind at ease

Paulkingk

Ok so this week i built myself some wheels. I went for Stans Arch Ex rims applied the sticky rim tape, stan's valves and a normal pair of Nobby Nic folding tyres. Added some of Joe's Sealant. As it was in the shed and hay presto! I appear to be tubeless. It was so easy it's making me concerned after hearing lots of horror stories of tyres popping off rims and not sealing so any way here are a few things I'm hoping you can put my mind at ease about.
1 - The arch ex rim seems to have very shallow side walls for the tyre to hold on to. is that really gonna hold my tyre on when the going get rough?

2 - what is the max psi i could run? I like my tyres fairly hard 40 psi?

2 - how often does the sealant need replacing in the wheels?

3 - Will I really get less punctures?

4 - Should I stop being a fanny and just go ride and see what happens?

mrmonkfinger

Are the Nobby Nics tubeless ready?

If not, you need the rubber rim strips to convert them, not just tape.

If yes, then you're fine.

Paulkingk

my understanding is that the rubber rim strip is only required if you rims are not tubeless ready the Stan's rims are but tyres are not. Did look into this and on the Stans web site it lists some non tubeless ready tyres that work and then says plus many others

Chunkers1980

Number three. You'll get more.

paul.skibum

If you like to run high pressures tubeless might be pointless - the idea is you can run lower pressures wihtout the pinch flat risk.

felix.london

paul.skibum wrote:

If you like to run high pressures tubeless might be pointless - the idea is you can run lower pressures wihtout the pinch flat risk.

This.

getonyourbike

No, there's still the advantages of less rolling resistance and more grip, even at the same pressure.

ricardo_smooth

getonyourbike wrote:

No, there's still the advantages of less rolling resistance and more grip, even at the same pressure.

Says what research?

ilovedirt

... how?

cooldad

Not again.....
Something about the rubber responding quicker as no tube.

ricardo_smooth

I call BS.....and firmly blame Wiggle

Paulkingk

Locally I'll run about 35psi. Surely even at high pressure the weight saving and sealing puncture ability is worth it. the 120ml of Joe's no flats I put in and 5g of rim tape is lighter than an inner tube all day long.

So I take it I'm safe using normal folding tyres with the Stan's rim or have I misunderstood something. All I put in the rim was the 21mm sticky rim tape and some sealant then whacked my old standard tyres on pumped up and sealed pretty much straight off. Was I lucky or is it normally this easy? the first one I pumped up with no sealant in and it stayed up too!

Shackster

I've got exactly that combination and it was as easy as you described. I've not had any problems in 5 months.

Stan's instructions I believe say 40psi is the maximum so you might want to drop the pressure a tad.

And no you won't get more punctures, that's ridiculous whoever said that. I rode the South Downs Way about 2.75 times in total last year and had no punctures, passed plenty that did, several times.

Shackster

Oh and the sealant should last about six months, ish. You just need to pop the bead off and check there's still some liquid or just a bit of a rubbery mess, in which case you wipe out the crap (or not) and top up.

Paulkingk

Wow thanks Shackster thats calmed my nerves a bit doing bit of a dream build should be finished this weekend. i've decided to leave the wheels at 40 psi whilst its sitting in the shed to make sure the bead seats properly. noticed the 40psi max thing today as I was truing the wheels so will let bit out before I use them. Still find the shallowness of the rim a concern probably coz everyone that looked at them mentioned it and I've always had Mavics up to this point.

Northwind

mrmonkfinger wrote:

Are the Nobby Nics tubeless ready?

If not, you need the rubber rim strips to convert them, not just tape.

This here, is what's known in the trade as total cobblers.

Paulkingk

I thought so. Standard tyres will be good then??

getonyourbike

ricardo_smooth wrote:

getonyourbike wrote:

No, there's still the advantages of less rolling resistance and more grip, even at the same pressure.

Says what research?

Says actually riding them. It was set up exactly the same before, just with a tube. They rolled noticeable quicker tubeless and gave a smoother ride. Simple

When I went tubeless with dual plys for the Alps I had loads of grip on the roots and rocks that were everywhere but when I crashed, burped the air out and had to stick a tube in I had noticably less grip at the same pressure. My guide out there noticed the same thing too. It really isn't as noticeable on the more boring trails at home, though.

The Northern Monkey

I'd still be surprised if there is any weight saving at all with tubeless.
Tyres are heavier, there's the gloop, some need tape/rubber, if you do get a flat or a 'burp' you need really a good pump or co2 stuff, you still need to carry a tube anyway just in case it doesn't seal properly....

I seriously don't see the point

Any changing tyres must a a right messy pain in the rectum.

Happy with my tubes!l

supersonic

I went back to tubes. I can't physically see any reason for more grip, nor lower rolling resistance. If anything the resistance should be higher as the gunk sloshes about - your energy moves it, and it damps itself.

Northwind

Paulkingk wrote:

I thought so. Standard tyres will be good then??

Probably. The problem with tyres not designed for tubeless is that there's no guarantees. I've never had one that didn't work reasonably well eventually, though the Contis were all sods. But some tyres just won't tubeless reliably.

And FWIW, I can't feel any difference in grip or rolling resistance, at the same pressures anyway. I can see why it might happen, but in the real world, if there's a difference it's too small for me to feel (and also, in the real world, if I get a flat and fix it there's absolutely 0% chance that I end up with the exact same pressure as I had before the flat!)

The Northern Monkey wrote:

I'd still be surprised if there is any weight saving at all with tubeless.
Tyres are heavier, there's the gloop, some need tape/rubber, if you do get a flat or a 'burp' you need really a good pump or co2 stuff, you still need to carry a tube anyway just in case it doesn't seal properly....

I seriously don't see the point

Any changing tyres must a a right messy pain in the rectum.

Happy with my tubes!l

Tyres weigh the same unless you choose heavier tyres. The gloop weighs less than a tube (I use a lot of sealant in my downhill setup, but then I'd be using heavier tubes too, it still weighs about half as much). You won't need rubber strips with proper tubeless rims.

If you get a full off-the-rim flat then you just fit a tube, which is no heavier or more inconvenient than fitting a tube... And always amuses me to hear this is a downside! "But you might have to temporarily convert it so that it's just the same as mine! That sucks!" But most of the time, even if you burp, the tyre bounces back onto the rim or only comes partly off so is easy to get back on with any sensible pump.

Tyre changes aren't messy, either. Unless you drop the tyre, when they suddenly are. Don't ask me how I knows.

Sure, there's faff. But it's mostly faff at a time of your choosing, unlike flats which usually happen at the most annoying time possible!

jairaj

stans rims are designed to be used with standard tyres even when running tubeless so you will be fine. Schwalbe and Maxiss tyres work well with Stans rims.

You might find the non tubeless tyres are a little porous but the sealant will seal them up fine after a bit. If you see small white blobs on your tyre don't worry thats the sealant coming through and sealing the holes. I'd check the sealant levels after a couple weeks and top up if required after that I'd check every few months or so.

Also the shallow bead hook is what makes the rims tubeless ready its a stans special design. I think it might possibly be explained on Stans website? I remember seeing a diagram somewhere on the web on how it works

ilovedirt

getonyourbike wrote:

ricardo_smooth wrote:

getonyourbike wrote:

No, there's still the advantages of less rolling resistance and more grip, even at the same pressure.

Says what research?

Says actually riding them. It was set up exactly the same before, just with a tube. They rolled noticeable quicker tubeless and gave a smoother ride. Simple

When I went tubeless with dual plys for the Alps I had loads of grip on the roots and rocks that were everywhere but when I crashed, burped the air out and had to stick a tube in I had noticably less grip at the same pressure. My guide out there noticed the same thing too. It really isn't as noticeable on the more boring trails at home, though.

Bullshit. Same pressure inside the tyre = same level of grip. What you are experiencing is more confidence as a result of the placebo effect.

Paulkingk

Had a feeling this may start a debate. For what it is worth going from mavic xm719 standard rim to a stans tubeless ready rim I have saved around 110g.(this is different to a UST rim. yes?) the yellow tape is supposed to be 5g a wheel. I'm running the same tyres as before but lost 2 inner tubes and gained f all weight in slime? so in my case there is a weight saving. I will always carry a tube though it would be foolish not to. I believe the weight thing is more of an issue if you have to convert standard rims i.e. using a rubber rim strip which esencially will weigh the same as an inner tube or if you go full UST where the rims and Tyres weigh quiet a bit more. But and no one seems to know for sure using a stans rim with normal tyres. 5g sticky rim tape and goop there is a weight saving. I'm still concerned about running my normal tyres, Nobby Nics. Although on the Schwalbe web site they are all claimed to be tubeless ready. which is not to be confused with tubeless ones which are heavier....This is clearly very straight forward :roll:

To be fair I just want to know if A. I'll be safe? which according to shackstar I should be, and B. I'll get less punctures. I've had so many it's driving me mad!!

Oh and before someone says it. Thought about Slime tubes but then you really are getting a weight penalty.

Paulkingk

Thanks Northwind and jairaj very informative responses, thats the sort of confirmation I was looking for. my tyres are still fully inflated this morning. just gotta get work out the way and then finish off the build

Anonymous

Paulkingk wrote:

2 - what is the max psi i could run? I like my tyres fairly hard 40 psi?

Very hard. Tyres should have some give else they ping off every rock and stone. Tarmac riding pressure only.

Tubless - 40 psi is usually the absolute maximum. Normal advice is any more and it will just blow the tyre of the rim.

I run 30 with tubes and even then it's a bit hard to get decent grip on some stuff. Trying tubeless now if I can get the damn things to inflate and probably run them 25 to 30. Not looking at much lower but more the grip and deforming characteristics of a tyre with no tube in. Many drop them way low but then they're burping and popping off the rim all over the place.

ilovedirt wrote:

Bullshit. Same pressure inside the tyre = same level of grip. What you are experiencing is more confidence as a result of the placebo effect.

Two layers of rubber to deform over roots and rocks vs one. There is a difference. Less so with dual-ply I'd have thought though. Tubes inside tend to make the outer tyre skin more uniform and solid. Roll well, less grip.

The Northern Monkey wrote:

I'd still be surprised if there is any weight saving at all with tubeless.

If you use UST tyres, no. But you don't need UST tyres. Just tubeless ready which can be regular single ply tyres that have good enough bead for seating. Some are marked tubeless ready, some just are known to work. Need sealant though, whereas UST in theory doesn't (but it's still advised).

if you do get a flat or a 'burp' you need really a good pump or co2 stuff, you still need to carry a tube anyway just in case it doesn't seal properly....

I seriously don't see the point

Any changing tyres must a a right messy pain in the rectum.

Happy with my tubes!l

Kind of been my attitude until recently when I've had the chance to ride tubeless and plenty of recommendations for it, plus I've got tubeless rims so I'm giving it a go. From what I can see the majority of the opinion like this, and definitely was mine too, is from people who've never tried it. But we'll see as this is me trying it.

Some of my riding buddies recently have had a number of tubeless hassles which is a bad omen, and I'm struggling with inflating the things myself but I gather it's just a learning curve. Once you get used to it and get the right pressure that works for you without burping then should be fine so I'm told. Flats are very minimal, only sidewall gashes will get you really. Burps should be fine so long as the rim has stayed seated.

getonyourbike

deadkenny wrote:

ilovedirt wrote:

Bullshit. Same pressure inside the tyre = same level of grip. What you are experiencing is more confidence as a result of the placebo effect.

Two layers of rubber to deform over roots and rocks vs one. There is a difference. Less so with dual-ply I'd have thought though. Tubes inside tend to make the outer tyre skin more uniform and solid. Roll well, less grip.

Bang on. The difference is still pretty obvious with dual plys but they ride nicer tubeless than single plys do, due to the stiffer sidewalls that help to stop the tyre roll around and they're more reliable because of the stiffer, slightly tighter bead. The different feel of tubeless isn't very obvious on boring trails at home but when you go to places covered in roots and rocks then they come into their own.

ilovedirt- So you're calling bullshit on something you've never actually tried?... :roll:

Northwind

getonyourbike wrote:

deadkenny wrote:

The different feel of tubeless isn't very obvious on boring trails at home but when you go to places covered in roots and rocks then they come into their own.

That's the second time you've said that... I didn't feel any difference racing at fort william, or on a week uplifting in the alps.

OTOH I didn't have a single puncture in all those tens of thousands of vertical metres strewn in trouble, so, still totally worth it.

ilovedirt

You're right, I haven't tried them, but the solid sidewalls on dual ply tyres is what makes them so good.