What would you do - poll?

Wheelspinner

Probably belongs in Your Rants, but..

Situation: 8 months ago on a local group ride, I was involved in a crash, caused by one rider not watching where he was going. He crashed, wiped me out too, both ended up in hospital. An "accident" certainly, in that there was no intent, but still an avoidable one for sure. Fractured vertebra - technically a broken neck. 2 months in a brace, enough X-rays and MRI/CT scans to make me glow, and another 6 months of unrelenting discomfort, to put it mildly, later, I am still unable to ride a road bike at all. Trying to use an MTB on the road for easy pootles but even that results in pain. I've spent a fortune on specialists, medication, therapists and associated things like different pillows to try and sleep properly, with limited success.

Now, rider who caused the crash has not once, I repeat, not once, called to ask how I am. I may not be the world's most lovable person, but I am a tad peeved at the apparent lack of concern, or respect for me. We were by no means close friends before the crash, just acquaintances on a bike, but even so...

If you were the cause of such a crash, would you give a flying f*ck about the other guy you took out? If you were the collateral damage (like me) would you be aggrieved if you heard nothing from the rider who caused it?

The Zen response is I probably should not care and just move on, but with not a single hour of any day since that I am not subject to the effects of that split second lapse, I am finding forgiveness a little tough to embrace for him.

Monkeypump

He might be too embarrassed to make contact, and the longer he doesn't the more difficult it becomes. It's easy (and quite common) to bury our heads in the sand.

Does he know the extent of your injuries/feelings?

Lots of accidents are avoidable, but they still happen - I'd say move on. Asking him to be more attentive to your woes is a bit pointless, IMHO.

DonDaddyD

OP, sounds like you need closure.

I've never been in this situation but I think the real question is can you live with not saying anything (and by lived with, I mean not hating the person being bitter, resentful etc) to this person. If you can't then you need to confront them and tell them how you feel and the injuries/recovery (assuming they don't already know and aren't aware of the extent of your injuries/recovery).

Wheelspinner

He's very aware of the injuries, as we were in the same hospital for 3 days. We compared road rash and neck braces amongst other things.

I don't expect any help from him at all. A simple once-off display of concern would suffice - "how are you?" for example. Having heard nothing, I rang him a couple of weeks after we left hospital, chatted for 5 mins, which seemed ok. Just strikes me as, um, odd that he's not seen fit to return the courtesy.

Gussio

Perhaps he is scared that expressing remorse or an apology could lead to a claim being made against him? Sad if the case, but stranger things have happened.

peat

Do you have a wife/girlfriend that has put this in your head?

The guy is probably mortified that his mistake has caused you injury and is understandably burying his head. As a bloke (assuming) i would have thought you would empathise.

Personally, i would be more pee'ed off if they kept asking me 'how are you?'. (the suitable answer being - In alot of pain, you pr!ck!)

Just seems *puts sexist cap on* like the sort of thing that a woman would say/think.

jedster

What I would do - probably not say anything unless I happened to meet him when I might say "to be honest mate, I've been a bit pissed off that you haven't been in touch - I've been in a lot of pain due to your mistake and you might have shown a bit of sympathy". Seeking him out to tell him that would be a step too far for me.

But I'm not sure that's right, just reflects my personality. World might be better if you did call him on it!

fossyant

Gussio wrote:

Perhaps he is scared that expressing remorse or an apology could lead to a claim being made against him? Sad if the case, but stranger things have happened.

Could be right.

Crap happens sometimes, just that this was a nasty off. The driver that caused me 3.5 years of pain and discomfort, numerous scans, nerve pain drugs, 1 operation, numerous injections doesn't have a clue about that side. The claim is settled, that's all she knows now.

It's a bit off that the other guy, especially if in the same club and he does have your number, hasn't called, but it could be either he is embarrassed or doesn't give a f***. Some folk are like this. Riding a bike doesn't stop that.

kelsen

He might not even think he was to blame.

Let this thread run its course, then point him towards it. What he does after is up to him but at least you've let your feelings be known.

anonymousblackfg

Odd, but I had a no way as similar incident of putting a club mate in an ambulance in the alps, helping him out, calling his wife on his emergency contact details who was pretty distraught but got a casual thanks on the club forum. Maybe embarrassed about it or just doesn't thing thanking someone was needed, however, it certainly does keep me up at night.

Unless the guy is an utter c*nt i'm sure he's too embarrassed to raise it and it's better left to lie.

vermin

Sounds like you need a big dose of catharsis, to go with the painkillers. I doubt the other guy's going to be able to provide that - he may be feeling guilty or embarrassed, or he may be blaming you. As above, he may be wary of claims. Whatever, he's probably affected by the incident too. However, I doubt that a confrontation with him will help either of you. What can he possibly say that would make this go away? More likely, it'll just open old wounds and increase the stress. The fact that you've started this thread suggests that you need to get this off your chest. Have you thought about getting some counselling? I'd have thought you could get help through the NHS. Contrary to popular male opinion, it can work.

Otherwise, MTFU.

BelgianBeerGeek

Sounds like it is kind of already too late and you are letting this build. Some people can move on from stuff that happens, some find it more difficult and no one person or situation is the same. The event sounds traumatic enough, if you're not careful this could ruin your life. Consider the counselling, as already mentioned.
It would be difficult to approach the other person in the right frame of mind otherwise and it could become confrontational which may make things worse.

Wheelspinner

Thanks all for the considered replies. Some clarifications: yes I'm a bloke, as is SO who's put up with my mood swings and general misery all this time. Medical profession has been a major disappointment, primarily interested in ensuring their colleagues all have a steady source of income. Referral, anyone? Sheesh, I'm sure they have a game called Patient Ping Pong. Counselling was suggested by one, as his second option after the first was a prescription for drugs strong enough to put me back in hospital. I declined, and sought another opinion, which seemed *very* marginally more sensible: try other drugs. :roll: I. Hate. Pills.

Occasionally when a bit pi$$ed, I've considered litigation, but quickly sobered up when I realised that means talking to a lawyer. Shudder. Besides, I don't need the money and neither of us needs that angst. I've done MTFU more than I care to recall. Sometimes it's worthwhile, sometimes just necessary, and occasionally just plain stupid. I've ended up in tears too often from trying too hard. Patience is not a virtue I can claim.

I'm not even sure catharsis is the point of this thread, although I'll let you know! I'm simply trying to understand whether my expectations, if that's the right word, are reasonable. I'm not 100% certain, but am pretty sure if the circumstances were reversed I'd have been in contact pronto to at least find out if that contact was welcome or not. I'd rather be told to pi$$ off than just ignore it and hope it all faded away.

Wheelspinner

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Sounds like it is kind of already too late and you are letting this build. Some people can move on from stuff that happens, some find it more difficult and no one person or situation is the same. The event sounds traumatic enough, if you're not careful this could ruin your life. Consider the counselling, as already mentioned.
It would be difficult to approach the other person in the right frame of mind otherwise and it could become confrontational which may make things worse.

It is indeed already "too late". That point passed months ago. Disappointing, but there it is. I just am unsure what best to do next. IMO, doing nothing at all seems like the least productive option. So far it's not worked anyway.

Origamist

I've been taken down in the past by the mistakes of others on group rides/races, and once, many years ago, I caused a major spill by taking a taking a hopelessly optimistic line through a tight corner. Thankfully, it did not result in the life changing injuries you have suffered, but I felt obligated to visit the most seriously injured rider and I apologised profusely and bought him some rum. He was gracious and advised me against the zig-zag approach to cornering in future.

On the face of it, the other chap sounds callous. However, it might be an opportunity for you to put something in writing to him (not face to face) - asking how he is and how he is recovering . It will undoubtedly be difficult as you are the wronged party in this, but it gives him the chance to atone for his apparent lack of interest in your welfare and also affords him the opportunity to give his side of the story and ask about your recovery. By taking the first step, you are making it a lot easier for him to broach the subject after eight months of silence.

If he ignores your correspondence, I'd consider him a grade "A" prick and I'd consign him to the dipshit bin.

MarksMintness

I had a similar situation about 10 years ago (I think that tells you all you need to know - I still remember it!) where I was tackled from behind in a friendly footy match amongst mates and broke my collar bone. Caused me to lose out on about 6 weeks pay as I was only doing a menial job after uni.

My issue was we were among friends and he never once acknowledged the tackle or said sorry. Let me tell you that still bugs me all these years later. Not really seen him since, but the lack of closure/resolution taught me a lesson - definitely have it out with the other party!

He remains a running joke amongst my mates, he was a bit of a prat and we still think so!

Cheers,

gabriel959

Sue him. Yes, you don't need the money but there is something called accountability. He caused accident, didn't even say sorry about it - well even if he had apologized I would have sued him.

slowbike

Do you have any group socials to go along to? If not, you could just turn up to the start of the ride to chat with the others whilst you're there - maybe even run out to the cake stop - obviously not on your bike ...
I'm assuming you consider these ppl your friends (well some of them anyway) and it does good to get out and mix with others.
If he's back on his bike he may see you there and listen in - and perhaps even come in to the conversation .. he probably feels a bit of a prat and now thinks it's too late to broach the subject - like you said - it's just about acknowledgement that he cocked up ...
Eitherway - try and get yourself back in the scene - even if you can't ride for now ... just don't be tempted to shuv a stick through his wheel if he rides past you!

peat

gabriel959 wrote:

Sue him. Yes, you don't need the money but there is something called accountability. He caused accident, didn't even say sorry about it - well even if he had apologized I would have sued him.

Then you're a prick. Well done.

confused@BR

It is clear that you are in a bad place for all sorts of reasons, medical and emotional. I recall the original postings and for someone who got so much pleasure from riding the loss of access to the bike must be very galling. You mentioned that it was a 'group' ride, does that 'group' have a legal entity that could be insured/sued? Not for pecuniary gain but to demonstrate the impact another's actions have had upon you. It might also remind others of that old phrase 'a duty of care'.

I know you do not wish for engagement with the legal profession and have already had too much contact with the medical profession but what about counseling? Not a very Antipodean approach I admit but you do seem in need of some form of closure and it doesn't look like it is turning up on it's own anytime soon. Best wishes,

Chris.

vermin

gabriel959 wrote:

Sue him. Yes, you don't need the money but there is something called accountability. He caused accident, didn't even say sorry about it - well even if he had apologized I would have sued him.

WTF? :shock:

peat

In light of your last few posts, OP, may i just apologise for essentially calling you a girl in my opening remarks.

Didn't realise it was as bad and had gone on as long. Sounds crap.

gabriel959

Peat wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

Sue him. Yes, you don't need the money but there is something called accountability. He caused accident, didn't even say sorry about it - well even if he had apologized I would have sued him.

Then you're a prick. Well done.

Care to elaborate why I deserved to be insulted?

If you had been driving a car and you would have had an accident that would have kept you out of work, not being able to perform my normal physical abilities properly and kept me off the hobby I like the most I reckon you would have been looking at some kind of settlement with the insurers. Yes I don't need the money, but I think I should be allowed to spend time with my family and friends without fearing pain or having to deal with doctors day in day out.

Cleat Eastwood

Maybe he just thought was a standard 'sh1t happens' crash - you know the type where he has a major fail and people pile into him - maybe he thinks he feels hard done by by fate, I dunno. There was a guy on a run the other week had an accident - no injured to your extent to he apologised to everyone for holding them up, may be your guys just embarrassed.

Why not have a word with someone at the club and express your feelings - word will filter through and maybe he'll do the honourable thing. People can be odd sometimes.

peat

In my opinion, you have to assume some level of danger/risk when driving/riding (life in general tbh) in my opinion. There seems to be an assumed 'right' that everyone should be able to get to their destination safely. How can that be when 'sh!t happens' frequently?

I race karts for a hobby, whenever i sign-on in the morning i have to formally accept the risks. Statistically, i am alot more likely to get hurt driving to and from the racetrack than i am racing.

In the event of a car crash, of course i would pursue the other parties insurer to cover my costs.

I don't think it's the direction that we (society) should be going in, but perhaps this is another instance that makes mandatory personal injury/public liability insurance not seem so ludicrous.

Sorry for the insult btw, i find it quite an emotive subject and found your point of view rather surprising.

gabriel959

Peat wrote:

In my opinion, you have to assume some level of danger/risk when driving/riding (life in general tbh) in my opinion. There seems to be an assumed 'right' that everyone should be able to get to their destination safely. How can that be when 'sh!t happens' frequently?

I race karts for a hobby, whenever i sign-on in the morning i have to formally accept the risks. Statistically, i am alot more likely to get hurt driving to and from the racetrack than i am racing.

In the event of a car crash, of course i would pursue the other parties insurer to cover my costs.

I don't think it's the direction that we (society) should be going in, but perhaps this is another instance that makes mandatory personal injury/public liability insurance not seem so ludicrous.

Sorry for the insult btw, i find it quite an emotive subject and found your point of view rather surprising.

It is but if I put myself on the OPs skin it means I wouldn't have been able to go out with my daughter and wife riding, it will have probably meant not being able not only go out on my bike but take time out of work to go to doctors appointment. I do understand shit happens, but if a part fails because it was badly designed I think I should be able to sue the maker of said part, hence if you go out riding your bike and provoke an accident you should expect consequences.

If I had been the one causing the accident I would have given him or her my insurance details, given my most sincere apologies and kept up with the recovery (may be not every day but from time to time at least).

andyb78

Peat wrote:

In my opinion, you have to assume some level of danger/risk when driving/riding (life in general tbh) in my opinion. There seems to be an assumed 'right' that everyone should be able to get to their destination safely. How can that be when 'sh!t happens' frequently?

I race karts for a hobby, whenever i sign-on in the morning i have to formally accept the risks. Statistically, i am alot more likely to get hurt driving to and from the racetrack than i am racing.

In the event of a car crash, of course i would pursue the other parties insurer to cover my costs.I don't think it's the direction that we (society) should be going in, but perhaps this is another instance that makes mandatory personal injury/public liability insurance not seem so ludicrous.

Sorry for the insult btw, i find it quite an emotive subject and found your point of view rather surprising.

Peat; your bolds. I'm not trying defend abulance chasers etc, but you acknowledge that driving statistically is far more dangerous than karting, yet do so, and would be happy to claim re: costs. Surely, if you're injured in a pursuit that is statistically far less dangerous,and still get injured through no fault of your own,(and on the face of it, due to the negligence of others) you should still have the same recourse re: action taken?

It's thrown up a bit of a quandry for me - first I thought that in the situation I'd just chalk it up and get on with things, but the more I think about it, if someone else's negligence caused me significant financial and physical impact, I wouldn't be out of line in wanting some form of compensation (not necessarily financial though?)

peat

Not wishing to derail the thread too much, Andy, but:

Although we sign disclaimer's on entry, it hasn't stopped people claiming against circuit's the past. On the whole, we accept that it is a 'dangerous' sport and that no-one has a gun to our head. If any of the claims were ever successful, it would spell the end for amateur motorsport almost instantly.

With road cars, the established method of remuneration via 3rd party insurance is already in place. It is a legal obligation to have it and you pay £500 a year to reduce your liability.

If i am out riding with mates and i make an error that knocks someone off, then they are going to turn around an sue me, why not have the same system in place?

slowbike

I know the OP isn't interested in the money side ...
I don't often ride in a group, but when I do I let the others know that it's alien to me ... so hopefully they give me more room - better to prevent the accident! But I have recently taken out British Cycling membership mainly to get the 3rd party cover ...

So - at what point do you change from an accident being "sh1t happens" to "I need to sue you to cover my medical bills"
If you want to go down the line of "fault" then if you've ridden into someone else once they've fallen then arguably you're riding too close to them - same as a rear shunt in the car "blame" is given to those at the back! But we all know that riding close together in a group is the best way to keep the speed up ...

So what to do?
1) Keep sufficient gap that you can avoid any sudden changes in speed/direction by a fellow rider and accept that you're no longer riding in a group...
or
2) Accept that if you're group riding then any accidents are your own fault, no matter the trigger ..

andyb78

's a fair point. Maybe liability insurance isn't such a bad thing if we end up in that situation? Although I guess you're advocating that's not the road we need to go down....

..Back to the OP - there's always the trusty D Lock I suppose

First.Aspect

On the face of it, I think you need to move on.

You spent 3 days in the same hospital. Is he an ar$e for not contacting you again since you both left hospital? Perhaps, perhaps not. After all, sounds like you chatted during the 3 days after the accident and were otherwise not close. How is he doing? Or haven't you asked? There you go.

I agree with those who point out that if you go on a group ride, you must accept the risks. You haven't really described the accident, or how you know what he should have seen to avoid going down. After all, you didn't see it, did you? And you cycled into him and put him into hospital for 3 days.

It sounds like he wouldn't have been hurt, or as badly hurt, if you didn't cycle over him, you wouldn't have been hurt if he was more attentive, and neither of you would have been hurt if you hadn't been riding an unsafe distance apart at speed on a public road. Move on.

In relation to the legal option, there was a quite serious accident in West Lothian about 3 or 4 years ago where someone tried to sue over a group ride accident and failed.
http://www.mackssolicitors.co.uk/compensation-claims/road-traffic-accident/crash-cyclist-loses-compensation-case.html
The law says you are both to blame.

I understand fully how you feel. It is very hard getting over an injury like this - trust me I have the rest of my life to deal with the consequences of a driver's carelessness, who I know has my contact details and who I know has been informed of the consequences of his actions. In this clearest cut of cases (he eventually pleaded guilty to careless driving and the insurance case goes on) I know I will never hear from him. It is probably best that way. This is just human nature and is completely normal.

Move on. Deal with your injuries. Focus on you. I hope you will get better - be patient, its early days. Do not give up. If you keep telling your body to do something, there is a chance it will eventually comply. If it doesn't, you will find another way. Whatever happens, it will be easier if you aren't angry at this guy. Its pointless.