Sad for Cav.....
Comments
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greasedscotsman wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:...Zabel is te greatest sprinter of all time for me.
Not sure where to rate Zabel, don't think he's won enough GT for me. But as it stands right now, there really isn't much between any of them.
12 Tour stages and 9 Vuelta stages in the Cipo era? Plus he was up against McEwen, Friere, Cooke, O'Grady, Pettachi, Boonen et al throughout his career."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:greasedscotsman wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:He's finished more Tours than Cipo ever did. And won more green jerseys. He's only ridden one Tour at which he didn't win at least 3 stages.
The only spinter he's behind for me is Zabel.
He's better cos he's finished the Tour? Cipollini's priorities were always at the Giro, which isn't that suprising for an Italian on an Italian team. I'll just point again to the number of GT stage wins, 57 to 36. And isn't the points comp at the Giro harder for a sprinter to win as it doesn't weight points towards the flat stages. And this is something that Cavendish hasn't won and Cipollini has 3 times.
Giro sprint stages are worth less than Tour stages....
And Cav's only halfway through his career.
Not to Italians!
They're less competitive.0 -
Not correct - L'Equipe only voted him best-ever sprinter in the history of the Tour.DeadCalm wrote:Not to forget L'Equipe voting him the best sprinter of all time.
I'm anyway never convinced by such polls (best song, best film, best actor, etc). It's nearly always something/someone recent who wins, because the voter is more familiar with he/she/it.
And in this case, for instance, who of the voters would have been able to remember Leducq - 25 stage wins in 3 years, 15 in mass sprints, 8 from sprints in breaks (something Cav has yet to demonstrate).0 -
Zabel & GTs - 6 TdF green jerseys, 4 Vuelta points jerseys.greasedscotsman wrote:
Not sure where to rate Zabel, don't think he's won enough GT for me. But as it stands right now, there really isn't much between any of them.disgruntledgoat wrote:...Zabel is te greatest sprinter of all time for me.
Also 4 San Remos, about 10 chipper classics (i.e. not LBL , P-R, or Flanders, but Amstel, Frankfurt, etc), 3 medals at World Championships.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:Zabel won 6 green jerseys, 4 MSRs, an Amstel Gold,3 Paris Tours, 3 Vuelta points Jerseys and had over 200 pro wins in a career lasting 15 years at the highest level.
Zabel wins jerseys and hilly faces with flat finishes.
He's a sprinter who's more versatile, but as an out and out pure sprinter, Cav's better.
The one Amstel win is more worth than plenty of Marks sprint stages.. Add 4 MSR's and there's no competition. Mark is way behind palmares wise. A world champion that couldn't even get his bum over Turchino - how awkward is that?0 -
Zabel's different. He's more well rounded. Less a pure sprinter, more a flat 1 day specialist with a quick sprint.
He won the jerseys by being consistent and picking up points when others were dropped - not by smashing them all consistently in the sprint like Cav.
Green jersey isn't a good indicator of the best sprinter. That Cav has only won one despite winning 4,5,6 bunch sprint stage wins, let alone the other bunch sprints, should tell you that.0 -
ThomThom wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:Zabel won 6 green jerseys, 4 MSRs, an Amstel Gold,3 Paris Tours, 3 Vuelta points Jerseys and had over 200 pro wins in a career lasting 15 years at the highest level.
Zabel wins jerseys and hilly faces with flat finishes.
He's a sprinter who's more versatile, but as an out and out pure sprinter, Cav's better.
The one Amstel win is more worth than plenty of Marks sprint stages.. Add 4 MSR's and there's no competition. Mark is way behind palmares wise. A world champion that couldn't even get his bum over Turchino - how awkward is that?
You're arguing something else.
You're saying Zabel's a better rider.
Fine.
But he's not a better sprinter.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Zabel's different. He's more well rounded. Less a pure sprinter, more a flat 1 day specialist with a quick sprint.
He won the jerseys by being consistent and picking up points when others were dropped - not by smashing them all consistently in the sprint like Cav.
Green jersey isn't a good indicator of the best sprinter. That Cav has only won one despite winning 4,5,6 bunch sprint stage wins, let alone the other bunch sprints, should tell you that.
Your youth is showing!
Zabel won 12 Tour bunch sprints. Nearly all his wins were bunch sprints. Certainly his 4 Milan San Remo wins were, and he should have had a 5th.
Zabel was a phenomanal bunch sprinter as well as a strong rider on a course like GW. If he wasn't a pure sprinter, why did HTC hire him as Cav's sprint coach?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
ThomThom wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:Zabel won 6 green jerseys, 4 MSRs, an Amstel Gold,3 Paris Tours, 3 Vuelta points Jerseys and had over 200 pro wins in a career lasting 15 years at the highest level.
Zabel wins jerseys and hilly faces with flat finishes.
He's a sprinter who's more versatile, but as an out and out pure sprinter, Cav's better.
The one Amstel win is more worth than plenty of Marks sprint stages.. Add 4 MSR's and there's no competition. Mark is way behind palmares wise. A world champion that couldn't even get his bum over Turchino - how awkward is that?
Different era where it was possible for a big sprinter to win a hilly race like that. I'll say no more. As for Cipo, his grand tour record is perhaps bloated by the Giro organisers making it a bit easier for him to win a hatful of stages / points jerseys. Anyway, whether Cav is ahead, equal or just behind those two, to be mentioned in the same breath means he's a legend in my eyes. To question the quality of a rider who has won that many GT stages, M-SR, world champs, GT points jerseys - you just end up looking a bit ignorant.0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Zabel's different. He's more well rounded. Less a pure sprinter, more a flat 1 day specialist with a quick sprint.
He won the jerseys by being consistent and picking up points when others were dropped - not by smashing them all consistently in the sprint like Cav.
Green jersey isn't a good indicator of the best sprinter. That Cav has only won one despite winning 4,5,6 bunch sprint stage wins, let alone the other bunch sprints, should tell you that.
Your youth is showing!
Zabel won 12 Tour bunch sprints. Nearly all his wins were bunch sprints. Certainly his 4 Milan San Remo wins were, and he should have had a 5th.
Zabel was a phenomanal bunch sprinter as well as a strong rider on a course like GW. If he wasn't a pure sprinter, why did HTC hire him as Cav's sprint coach?
He's not pure in the sense he can get over quite a bit - more strings to his bow.
12 bunch sprints over 23?
I can't think of a sprinter who has won so often so consistently in the Tour - and that, for the last 20 years is THE most competitive race - especially for sprinters.
Zabel's hit ratio is lower, as is every other sprinter I can think of.
Ignoring this season, Cav was pretty much unbeatable when he had reasonable form. Unbeatable. For a good 4 years. He also regularly smashes the sprints. I mean by properly miles. He's the most reliable and consistent winner.
Set him up for a sprint finish and he'll win it. Can't say that about any other sprinter with certainty.0 -
Cav has been beaten by Guardini in a straight up sprint this year too. Hasn't Kittel beaten him too? Still the best ever in my eyes though.0
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And I agree that when he stops, Cavendish will have won a hatful more races and be right up there. Heck, he's up there already, but I think Zabel's palmeres is better as a sprinter.
Zabel had to work consistently without a leadout at the Tour too, remember."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Zable was in his late 30s when he retired and was still winning Tour stages into his 30s so it's no wonder his palmares are better than Cav, who's 27. Plus Cav (AFAIK) never used EPO.0
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inseine wrote:Zable was in his late 30s when he retired and was still winning Tour stages into his 30s so it's no wonder his palmares are better than Cav, who's 27. Plus Cav (AFAIK) never used EPO.
That's exactly what I think we're arguing. You can't state that somebody is better based on what they may win."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0
