Questions to all the Brits

No_Ta_Doctor

Times are changing Bernie. Cycling is booming, there's far better infrastructure than ten years ago and even arch petrol head and reactionary bigot Clarkson has praised the Copenhagen model - though clearly because it segregates cyclists from motorists on the road.

And there's no difference between people cycling as a "lifestyle choice" and "for everyday utilitarian purposes". Bikes on the street are bikes on the street. And when the wannabe Clarkson in the pub pipes up with his tax-dodging-lycra-clad-idiots rant it only takes one guy who rides occasionally to challenge his perceptions and the whole edifice ceases to be normalised.

We're clearly far behind Scandinavia, Holland and Germany but we're making up ground fast. There's no need to treat it as some vast politico-cultural inevitability that we'll never see cyclists represented or catered for in public life. Normalising cycling in middle England, in your Daily Mail readers, isn't far off.

TheYorkshireMan

No tA Doctor wrote:

Normalising cycling in middle England, in your Daily Mail readers, isn't far off.

And what's more the Brits are dominating the Tour and doing so clean, there is no poverty in Britain and fairies are real.

No_Ta_Doctor

TheYorkshireMan wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Normalising cycling in middle England, in your Daily Mail readers, isn't far off.

And what's more the Brits are dominating the Tour and doing so clean, there is no poverty in Britain and fairies are real.

Dont be a dick.

TheYorkshireMan

No tA Doctor wrote:

Dont be a dick.

Get a grip on reality...

A House of Commons Transport Committee report published today shows an annual rise in road fatalities since 2003. The report singles out cycle safety as a particular concern: “We have found particular issue in casualty rates for young drivers and cyclists."

...Road fatalities were up 3 percent from 2010 to 2011 and killed and seriously injured figures (KSIs) up 2 percent - the latter the first annual increase since 1994. In 2011, 3085 cyclists were killed or seriously injured – a rise of 15% compared to 2010.

...CTC's official press release response stated: “CTC has attributed the deterioration in road safety for all transport modes to a decline in road traffic policing and the consequence of the Government’s rhetoric of ‘ending the war on the motorist’.”

http://www.bikeradar.com/commuting/news ... ion-34653/

No_Ta_Doctor

It wasn't a comment on your argument Bernie, it was a comment on your way of arguing it. It stands.

TheYorkshireMan

My response was a reflection of the naïveté of your statement.

You might like to reflect on the fact that for much of the 20th Century cyclists outnumbered motorists on the road in Britain, and yet they were still treated as being members of an expendable underclass by many motorists, the police and the courts. So much for having large numbers of cyclists necessarily leading to greater respect!

The only real change is that today cyclists in Britain are called 'lycra louts' and 'two-wheeled terrorists' whilst in the 30's they were called 'cads on castors' and in the 1880's 'monkeys on a wire'.

Marco4

1. Its a massive, massive thing. People are talking to me at work about it. Britain loves a champion, and cycling is on the up and up and this can only help.

2. I'd like to see Wiggins retain, but if he's not the best at Sky, so be it.

3. Think Wiggins will mean more, but possibly BECAUSE Cav has helped, too.

No_Ta_Doctor

TheYorkshireMan wrote:

My response was a reflection of the naïveté of your statement.

You might like to reflect on the fact that for much of the 20th Century cyclists outnumbered motorists on the road in Britain, and yet they were still treated as being members of an expendable underclass by many motorists, the police and the courts. So much for having large numbers of cyclists necessarily leading to greater respect!

The only real change is that today cyclists in Britain are called 'lycra louts' and 'two-wheeled terrorists' whilst in the 30's they were called 'cads on castors' and in the 1880's 'monkeys on a wire'.

Of course, the only difference between 1880, 1930 and 2012 is the terminology of abuse. Right.

Your argument is so full of holes you could drive a Danish cycle path through it.

Owning a car is no longer the preserve of the elite. Lots of people have them. You don't even need to employ a boy with a red flag to walk in front of them nowadays. The narrative of "lycra louts" who don't pay their "road tax" is still present, but it's by no means the norm. But you like to take the worst in Britain and extrapolate it to the entire nation. It's fundamentally disrespectful to the narratives of the multitudinous minority groups you would otherwise be championing the rights of. Shame they're all British, eh?

Can I politely suggest you do one? You're only here to fight, Bernie, as ever.

thamacdaddy

Back on topic

1. Excited to see a Brit winner. I am not overly patriotic but when it comes to anything like this seeing success from people who have experienced the same sort of background as you (as basic as just living in Britain) I think makes you feel a bit more in touch. Regardless when I started really watching the tour in the 90's the only Brit I actually knew of that cycled was boardman after Barcelona Olympics. It was the indurain years and I used to do time trials on my mtn bike vs my best mate all summer long round the block.

2. Froome has really not endeared himself to me this tour and I know I am being unreasonable about it. For me I like people to be a bit more humble and selfless, perhaps that's a British trait. He seems to help wiggo then body language says he is not happy about it (and the interviews). Part of me thinks you should pay your dues first but I know that sounds silly. On the other hand I always liked wiggins then started to think he was a prima Donna control freak. As this tour has progressed I think he has grown into a better leader of a team, full of confidence and praise for his team. I am starting to like him again and would rather people like him and Thomas uran, heneo etc get more support than a rider who says the sort of things froome has in the press.

3. Cav for me has learnt to deal with the success on the road and this has always been why I like his attitude and approach to the big stages now. Dominating the tour and races like msr where people write him off and displaying his emotions the way he does will always make me like him a bit more, however they have both achieved so much and make me proud they are I a team run by BC based in my home city of Manchester.

4. I think this has already had an impact. I get texts from friends about the tour and asked by none cycling fans at work about it everyday. I think they will also shine at the Olympics and feature in all the papers. Even the daily mail has been covering the tour this time. Also cycling is booming. London has a massive cycling community and I am seeing this in every city now. I used to be me of the few commuters in my area and in m industry interested in cycling and now it's common to find a group of cycling geeks at any industry event I go to or on the roads everyday. Bike sales are up, events are up and this growth is only going to be helped by things like havering a pro team and events such as sky ride. They might be commercial but the amont of none elisteist cyclists there just enjoying a Pootle round town is impressive. I think times are changing here and attitudes will the more drivers are also cyclists too.

iainf72

[quote="thamacdaddy"
2. Froome has really not endeared himself to me this tour and I know I am being unreasonable about it. For me I like people to be a bit more humble and selfless, perhaps that's a British trait. He seems to help wiggo then body language says he is not happy about it (and the interviews). Part of me thinks you should pay your dues first but I know that sounds silly. On the other hand I always liked wiggins then started to think he was a prima Donna control freak. As this tour has progressed I think he has grown into a better leader of a team, full of confidence and praise for his team. I am starting to like him again and would rather people like him and Thomas uran, heneo etc get more support than a rider who says the sort of things froome has in the press.

[/quote]

I suppose that's going to be to do with his upbringing etc. He'll just be a lot more blunt than perhaps you'd expect which would be normal in Jo'burg but make people in the UK cringe a bit

Agent57

1. Does it matter to you that a British rider will win the Tour for the first time?

Hell yes! I started following the TdF in about 1984, when Channel 4 started showing highlights. I've waited about 28 years for this moment.

2. Assuming Wiggins wins, would you prefer next year that the team again works for him or for Froome?

I prefer Wiggins as a person (or personality), but I'm interested to see what Froome can do. He's nowhere near Wiggins in the TT IMO, but he looked a lot stronger in the mountains. Overall, I don't have a strong preference; Wiggo gets it, but mostly I just think it's bloody brilliant that British cycling is in this position of having two people we think can win the blooming race!

3. Will a British Tour de France GC victory mean more than Cavendish's domination over the last few years?

It'll mean more this year. Cav won the BBC Sports Personality of the Year last year, and I was a little surprised because I didn't really think a) enough people cared about cycling, or b) would "get" the green jersey or stage wins really. I think winning the race overall is probably easier for the man in the street to understand, so I think it'll have more of an impact. Of course, if we Brits win the Olympic Road Race or TT, well that might have even more impact as more people follow the Olympics than the TdF.

TheYorkshireMan

No tA Doctor wrote:

Your argument is so full of holes you could drive a Danish cycle path through it. Owning a car is no longer the preserve of the elite. Lots of people have them.

So what? All that has happened is that the attitudes that the social elite brought with them when they adopted the car have simply gained greater traction as more and more people have gained access to motor vehicles. To re-quote Corbett, as you don't appear to have read my original post fully:

...Elitist attitudes are so deeply rooted that we hardly question the dominant ideology of the 'car as master' (e.g. Davis 1992). Pedestrians have to avoid the car rather than the other way around, pedestrians have to use unpleasant underpasses to facilitate traffic flow. The widely perceived sacrosanct 'right to drive' has been described by Coward (2001) as 'synonymous with individual freedoms' and 'challenging them is akin to violating human rights'. Objections to cars and traffic offending can be considered prudish (ibid.). This 'car as master' attitude is epitomised by the cult appeal, political incorrectness and machismo of media pundits who regularly derogate 'bad' or 'slow' drivers (those who adhere to speed limits) and applaud high speed (e.g. Clarkson 2000, 2002a, 2002b).

...It is not surprising that so many want to be part of this culture (whether they have licences or not) because drivers are treated - and treat themselves - as superior to other road users.

Plenty of other people have recognised that current attitudes towards car use have their origins in the attitudes the social elite brought with them when they first took cars onto the public's road. For example, Ruth Brandon (ironically, another cyclist-hater) in her 2002 book Automobile notes that:

...motorist’s behaviour invited excess [punishment]. And no one seemed able or willing to curb it. For the section of society from which motorists were drawn was the very section accustomed to do the curbing. They were the ones who made the rules and set the standards of behaviour. Any attempt to regulate them was seen as an insult, and they used all their considerable muscle to defeat such socialist notions.

Even the Transport Research Laboratory in their report Drivers’ perceptions of cyclists acknowledges that it is the hierarchical and status-orientated attitudes of most car drivers that underpin their attitudes towards cyclists. For example:

cyclists are not perceived to be high on most drivers’ road user status hierarchy. This perception also has implications for driver behaviour and safety of cyclists, as other research has shown that road users who are deemed to be of low status are treated with less care and consideration.

ms_tree

I'm not overly patriotic or a Wiggins fan but the Olympic Torch is coming to my town tomorrow and someone asked if I was going and I said No I am going to watch TV to see the first Briton wear the Yellow Jersey into Paris. However, Wiggins does seem to be more amenable now he has won it, more humble and he does value the history of cycling unlike a certain American who thought he was bigger than it all. Will it make a difference on the roads? I doubt it - I won't ride round here unless things change drastically.

nolance

I am delighted that a Brit,and a hard-working dedicated one at that,has won the Tour.Secondly I don't give a toss either way who wins,gangs up or works against whoever next year but I do want to see a competitive one.I remember Lance and the guys strangling the life out of Tours in years past and it was no fun to watch and this years seemed a little like that,partly because Sky got the tactics right and partly because of the dearth of rivals in form.
Conversely I would like Sky to flop next year to stop all these Johnny come latelys at work who all of a sudden know all the workings of the peloton and talk about a sport they know f"*k all about!!!

RichN95.

nolance wrote:

Conversely I would like Sky to flop next year to stop all these Johnny come latelys at work who all of a sudden know all the workings of the peloton and talk about a sport they know f"*k all about!!!

As I keep saying, unless you came out of the womb telling the midwife tales of Zaaf* falling asleep and Beuffeuil's* De Gaulle inspired stage win, then you were a know-nothing noob once too.

*Off to Wiki again noobs.

nolance

As I keep saying, unless you came out of the womb telling the midwife tales of Zaaf* falling asleep and Beuffeuil's* De Gaulle inspired stage win, then you were a know-nothing noob once too.
My Mum did complain that my cleats hurt on the way out!

No_Ta_Doctor

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... e-cyclists

And:
13 million British cyclists, £3bn economy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... nomy-study

No_Ta_Doctor

Bike sales boom, despite double dip recession

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/b ... ling-sales

symo

1. Does it matter to you that a British rider will win the Tour for the first time? (I'm not a Brit and I think it's amazing and fantastic, but I'm curious)
Amazing, like many I watched the tour on C4 when I was younger at it had 30 minutes, I went to France last year as I thought Wiggo would win then, he crashed out, but it was still nice to stand on the road waving a UK flag for what declares itself to be a UK team.
2. Assuming Wiggins wins, would you prefer next year that the team again works for him or for Froome?
I personally don't think Froome is as strong as Wiggins, others can disagree; but a few of those stages Wiggo looked fresh at the finish. Don't confuse riding a little ahead of Wiggins diesel is the same as a meaningful break, I think Froome would have been over his threshold and been hauled back (despite what his GF thinks). Lets not forget the amazing Mr Porte and Mr Rogers had sheltered him as well.
3. Will a British Tour de France GC victory mean more than Cavendish's domination over the last few years?
Definitely, I am a moooohoooosive Cav fan, but Yellow is yellow. I think we saw a new Cav in this tour, showing maturity enough to be a water carrier, but still good enough to get stage wins without a train, lets not forget that Cav was stuck behind some of the crashes which prevented him contesting.
4.How much of a difference do you think this will make in the acceptance of cycling/cyclists in Great Britain?
Huge, me and the other cyclist in the office have already been into town with 8 people this week wanting a road bike (and being shocked at what we consider to be entry level pricing). However cars still pass close by to me and there is still a lot of hostility on the road, at least no-one makes a comment when I come into the office in Lycra now.

(And feel free to correct me if "Brit" is considered rude - I actually have no idea)
No love the term, just don't call me a cockney,geordie,scouser, brummie, yokel or anything else or I'll 'ave yer.

No_Ta_Doctor

It's happening, even the Daily Mail are weighing in now on cycle safety
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... elmet.html

greasedscotsman

No tA Doctor wrote:

It's happening, even the Daily Mail are weighing in now on cycle safety
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... elmet.html

I'm shocked. You read the Daily Mail? Come on, your better than that!

No_Ta_Doctor

greasedscotsman wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

It's happening, even the Daily Mail are weighing in now on cycle safety
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... elmet.html

I'm shocked. You read the Daily Mail? Come on, your better than that!

I bleached my brain afterwards.