Carbon frame, new wheels, Alpe D'huez

Melter

Hello All

I've been riding a Felt z85 Alu frame with Mavic CXP22 Rims (think that's right).
The wheels I know are pretty "average" but everything works and runs ok and hasn't let me down over some reasonable distance, and that includes some head down, on the drops, high speed (that's relative) dives into pot holes.
However, I've started hankering after a Canyon carbon and am wondering if I'm just getting caught up in the hype.
I'm pretty slow, averaging normally 15-16mph over 30 mile sort of rides on flatish terrain.

What I was hoping to find out is whether I would get an increase in average just by having a new bike... I see many riders on carbon frames, and I'm sure it's not all for show, I also know that when climbing, its a real benefit with the lower weight, but i don't live in the peaks or Mountains.
So, is it likely to make a difference to me, and what are those potential gains please? Is it a better ride? Faster ride? or just better looking ride?

So wheels, mine are apparently pretty awful as wheels go from what I read. Again, what will be noticeable if I upgraded to a set of Ksyrium Elites? Would I actually see or notice a difference in all honesty?

And lastly, Alpe D'huez. I have a plan to one day climb it, but I also have no really hilly training areas where I live.
Is it going to be posible to train enough to prepare me to climb this? Or am I going to find myself after 2 hairpins, collapsed on my back on the side of the road with 1 foot still in the cleat, one hand draped accross my forehead and the other hand laying outstretched with an energy gel sitting in it's palm, chest pumping manically, and tears rolling down my face? This vision also includes the word "Delgado" just visible on the tarmac.

I'm hoping that someone may have some mountain climbs under their belt and may be able to advise whether a mere mortal could train enough without any long hard climbs to train on.

Well, thanks for any advice o/

airwise

Get a good turbo trainer if you want to prepare for climbing mountains. Whatever anyone tells you, it's way better training than "hill" repeats in most of the UK. Get used to pushing a decent torque for an hour at a time and the Alpe will be easily achievable.

dd1

To a certain degree I agree with airwise. I have done the Etae the last two years, and coming from a fairly flat part of the world, have also done a lot of training on a turbo. After a 5 minute warm up I stick it in the hardest gear and then grind it out for between 60-90 mins (usually watching film/football). I also stick in a couple of 5 minute standing efforts in the middle.
There are no hills in the UK that can get you ready for a slog up the Alpe, but I have travelled to Sportives in the Lake and Peak district which have been good tests early in the season

cougie

You'd probably see a short term increase in speed on a new bike - mainly psychological - unless the new bike is a lot more expensive than the one its replacing.

With the Alpe you're looking at climbing solidly for over an hour. So you need a bike with low gearing. Triple or compact.
But getting fit is the key. So lose weight if you can (off yourself) and practice climbing. Weekends away in the Peak district or other hilly areas will give you a clue as to what you need to do.

Turbo sessions are good - as are decent spin classes.

Any mere mortal can do the Alpe - you see all kinds of nutters doing it - but the harder you work here - the easier it will be over there.

Bobbinogs

Hello Melter, welcome on board.

Ref:

Melter wrote:

So wheels, mine are apparently pretty awful as wheels go from what I read. Again, what will be noticeable if I upgraded to a set of Ksyrium Elites? Would I actually see or notice a difference in all honesty?

This comes up a lot, just typing "new wheels" into the search tool (top left hand side) showed over 2,000 hits ( ). Stock wheels (yours will be some generic hub with Mavic rims) are usually ok but rarely great. Swapping to nice light wheels will not really make you that quicker but may make you feel it. I think a bike with nice light wheels and decent hubs that roll well makes a bike feel a lot more responsive (I love throwing a bike about that has light wheels on it) and they might make a small tangible difference on the hills although stiffness can also be a big factor there, particularly for the lardy boys.

Just have a think about what type of wheel you want, factory built or handbuilt, as they do have relative merits although both can be very light and both can have great hubs and rims (equally, both types can be bloody awful).

RS80s and Krysium Elites are often mentioned on here (I have the RS80s and they are very nice...but I also have several sets of handbuilts such as Record hub/Ambrossio Excellight rims and they are also nice). The handbuilts don't look quite so bling but are my first choice for 200k rides as a popped spoke can be overcome using zipties and open brakes (yes, I have had to resort to this), whereas I cannot foresee a front RS80 wheel being rideable with a broken spoke due to the low count (I stand to be corrected though).

Melter

thank you for answers so far..

I hadn't considered a turbo trainer as training for a mountain, but I will have a look and see what's what with them. If anyone has a strong view on which to get, or check out, please let me know.

I will indeed consider a trip to the Lakes or Peak District as a test, good idea.
The Spin bike may also be a solution I will consider.

I have over the months seen many posts about changing wheels to better ones, but however, and - much like carbon frames, never managed to find any posts that indicate the practical advantages. I can't say that I wouldn't like my bike just to feel better, lighter, more responsive, of course anyone would, but, is that all you get from a decent carbon frame and good wheels in reality, and no real gain in average speed if you're not climbing?
When on the flat, say cruising at a steady output and doing 20mph for example, will 2.5-3kg less weight make a difference to the speed? I suspect not noticeably. On the other hand, maybe it's feasible that better wheels a quality carbon frame would allow for better power transfer and result in a higher cruising speed.
I would like to hope that someone has found a real advantage in going from a £800 setup to a £2k one. If those that have made that upgrade and say "you'll feel like it's faster, but it probably isn't", that's fine by me, that may well be enough to upgrade. If for example it would be easier on your body to ride a carbon frame, that is a valid reason to spend the cash if there is no speed advantage.

o/

ineedalager

A carbon frame won't make you any faster on the flat the lower weight comes into play on the climbes. I have a Spesh Allez and a Chinese Carbon frame self built bike. The carbon bike is 3-4lbs lighter than the Aluminium framed Allez. On a good day I am just as fast on the climbs on the Aluminium framed bike as I am on the Carbon framed bike I have proof of this on Starva, so it's not a huge difference it can be down to how you are feeling fitness wise.

I tackled a 2k climb on both bikes and the second day I was slower up it on the carbon Framed bike but did a much faster overall 52 mile ride! I was 8 mins quicker for the 52 miles but slower up the climbes go figure!

I didn't need a carbon framed bike I just wanted one the Allez was pefectly OK for the riding I'm doing.

I would do some hill reps find a local steepish 1k hill ride to the top coast back down and ride it again 5 times, Do this once a week and you climbing will improve. It will still hurt you will just go up them a bit faster.

Melter

ineedalager wrote:

A carbon frame won't make you any faster on the flat the lower weight comes into play on the climbes. I have a Spesh Allez and a Chinese Carbon frame self built bike. The carbon bike is 3-4lbs lighter than the Aluminium framed Allez. On a good day I am just as fast on the climbs on the Aluminium framed bike as I am on the Carbon framed bike I have proof of this on Starva, so it's not a huge difference it can be down to how you are feeling fitness wise.

I tackled a 2k climb on both bikes and the second day I was slower up it on the carbon Framed bike but did a much faster overall 52 mile ride! I was 8 mins quicker for the 52 miles but slower up the climbes go figure!

I didn't need a carbon framed bike I just wanted one the Allez was pefectly OK for the riding I'm doing.

I would do some hill reps find a local steepish 1k hill ride to the top coast back down and ride it again 5 times, Do this once a week and you climbing will improve. It will still hurt you will just go up them a bit faster.

This is really interesting, if you had the choice over, would you buy the carbon bike again?

simona75

I recently changed from an Allez to a Carbon bike (orca) and have noticed a rise in my avg speeds (about 1-2 mph) but that's probably down to a range of factors rather than just the frame (most mental- you want your new bike to be faster so you try harder)

sparkins1972

Hello there - we two penneth for what it is worth.

I started out road riding on a flat barred, alloy framed Ridgeback Genesis Day 02 bike with Tiagra triple. I fast got the bug and spent every spare minute researching bikes, upgrades etc. I made my mind up I needed / wanted a carbon framed bike as it would make me faster etc. I saved up my pennies, test rode a multitude of bikes and drew up a short list of ones I would be delighted with if I could find a second hand bike. I eventually found on 08 Madone 5.2, which in all honesty is more bike than I will ever need.

The positives are that it is lighter, stiffer, more comfortable, more stylish, all things that were important. I have ridden it regularly for the past couple of years but recently has been in the menders and I have got my old faithful Ridgeback out of the shed and lo and behold on my 8 mile commute which I tend to use as a TT, I have found no difference in speed between the two bikes which has left me a bit red faced.

I would never go back to replacing my Madone with my old bike mainly for comfort reasons (less road buzz from carbon plus variety of hand positions on drop bars) but if I am being 100% honest, I think I could have got away with a cheaper alloy framed road bike. I guess it comes down to wanting a carbon framed bike versus needing one. I still get the excitement of getting out on the Madone even when the weather is crappy that I simply didn't get on my old bike.

Melter

sparkins1972 wrote:

Hello there - we two penneth for what it is worth.

I started out road riding on a flat barred, alloy framed Ridgeback Genesis Day 02 bike with Tiagra triple. I fast got the bug and spent every spare minute researching bikes, upgrades etc. I made my mind up I needed / wanted a carbon framed bike as it would make me faster etc. I saved up my pennies, test rode a multitude of bikes and drew up a short list of ones I would be delighted with if I could find a second hand bike. I eventually found on 08 Madone 5.2, which in all honesty is more bike than I will ever need.

The positives are that it is lighter, stiffer, more comfortable, more stylish, all things that were important. I have ridden it regularly for the past couple of years but recently has been in the menders and I have got my old faithful Ridgeback out of the shed and lo and behold on my 8 mile commute which I tend to use as a TT, I have found no difference in speed between the two bikes which has left me a bit red faced.

I would never go back to replacing my Madone with my old bike mainly for comfort reasons (less road buzz from carbon plus variety of hand positions on drop bars) but if I am being 100% honest, I think I could have got away with a cheaper alloy framed road bike. I guess it comes down to wanting a carbon framed bike versus needing one. I still get the excitement of getting out on the Madone even when the weather is crappy that I simply didn't get on my old bike.

You have saved me £2000 - well, I probably would get £500 for my old bike, so £1500 anyway : )
Lance Armstrong has said something along the lines of, 1km of hill will take 10secs longer per extra kilo of weight, he doesn't stipulate what gradient we are talking, so that's very rough figures I guess (I suspect he's talking of a fair old incline...doubt he would find anything near me that he wouldn't call flat). So obviously, at top level, a carbon bike makes sense speed wise.
I would like to test one to see what difference you get in comfort, I ride with 25mm tyres so I get a reasonable ride on my ally.
On top of all that are 2 things that are in the back of my mind too, first, if I drop my bike, I dont worry too much about whats going on under the paint - if I dropped a carbon frame, I know I'd be yelping with angst. Also, I can clamp my bike to my bike work clamp without worrying about crushing it...

I can't help feeling this is one of those: "should I get a Lexus or a Ford Escort?" kind of scenario

Bobbinogs

Melter wrote:

Lance Armstrong has said something along the lines of, 1km of hill will take 10secs longer per extra kilo of weight

...and on the way down the other side of the hill, you will probably save 10secs of time per extra kilo

Unfortunately there is no magic way of getting quicker. The most effective way is to be the best cyclist one can be (by maximising one's natural ability through effective and sustained training) at the most optimum rider weight for that individual. When you have cracked all that, buying a better bike will make the marginal difference needed to improve the final bit left. Nothing wrong with buying the better bike first, but you will only get the marginal improvement it can offer (and sometimes that improvement is not in the performance but the quality or feel of the ride, etc.).

Melter

Bobbinogs wrote:

...and on the way down the other side of the hill, you will probably save 10secs of time per extra kilo

I already take full advantage of this with natural stacking : )
If I could just erase the top part of the climbs where I'm spreadeagled in the nettles coughing up the words; "leave me, leave me..." I'd be sorted

hammerite

I've ridden Alpe d'Huez a few times.

The first time was as a relatively new cyclist on my alu framed entry level Trek Pilot and cheapo wheels (now replaced to still cheapo Mavic Aksiums), this bike is now my winter bike. I got up fine, it was hot and hard work but kept spinning a gear and got up. I hadn't done any specific hard training before just getting out and riding when I could.

When I went back last year I had my lovely carbon Wilier Izoard with light-ish Campag Neutron wheels. I was out there to do the AdH triathlon. I pedalled up there with a mate a few days before the race at a relatively easy effort compared to my first attempt and was about 10 mins quicker too. Was this down to the bike... no probably not, although I guess it helped. I'd say it was mainly down to being a lot fitter and experienced.

One thing I know that changed when I got the Wilier is that I got a lot more serious about my riding. I'd just spent the best part of £2k on a bike and had to justify it by riding more, and getting fitter.

Melter

this is really interesting.
when you first did Alpe D'huez, did you have many moments where you thought you'd bitten off more than you could chew? Was it harder than you thought or as you expected etc?
I know that the first couple of hairpins are meant to be the hardest, so maybe that is daunting, how did you find it as you remember?

DavidJB

You wont get faster on the flat. You will be faster on the hills but the best way is fitness. The stiffness, cornering and general throughput on a high end machine is second to none but the engine is most important.

If you ever start racing at a decent level then the bike will make a difference.

Bordersroadie

If you convince yourself you need a better x, y or z and can afford it then you'll buy it/them. If you want to gain some approval from strangers on a forum before you shell out, then go ahead. However, the gains of a lighter bike will be miniscule and meaningless unless you're a competitive racer.

My mate (an pretty decent ex-roadracer) is into several expensive sports (and has a family!) so cannot afford an expensive bike. He just did the Maratona dles Dolomites (a tough European Sportive) in a fast time on a second hand aluminium Focus that he bought recently for £300 and which weighs in at well over 10kg.

He thrashed several thousand competitors all of whom appeared to be riding bikes costing on average of upwards of £3000 each, almost all of them carbon-framed with very nice wheels.

It's about the rider, not the bike. This is not a criticism of those that want to buy expensive bikes, but a fit rider is worth many, many more saved seconds/minutes/hours than a lighter bike ever will be, for most mere mortals with a life to lead, who are not dedicated to proper road-racing.

vorsprung

This business with "does a carbon bike make you go faster?" is kinda interesting. Before last year, when I got a carbon bike, I'd have said "no"

But then I seemed to be going faster on it and part of the explanation seemed to be the bike.

There is no doubt that lighter wheels will make your bike accelerate faster. Everyone agrees on this. Also the overall weight of the bike has a small effect on your overall weight when going uphill. The weight of the wheels as part of the overall weight is uncontraversially an improvement to power to weight ratio.

There is disagreement over if lighter wheels make climbing easier due to them being lighter wheels, rather than just part of the overall weight of the bike

Some people claim that there is no acceleration effect when climbing so the rotational weight make no difference
Others claim that tiny microaccelerations during the pedal stroke- which is more ragged when climbing - mean that a lighter wheel is better

Melter

Bordersroadie wrote:

If you convince yourself you need a better x, y or z and can afford it then you'll buy it/them. If you want to gain some approval from strangers on a forum before you shell out, then go ahead. However, the gains of a lighter bike will be miniscule and meaningless unless you're a competitive racer.

My mate (an pretty decent ex-roadracer) is into several expensive sports (and has a family!) so cannot afford an expensive bike. He just did the Maratona dles Dolomites (a tough European Sportive) in a fast time on a second hand aluminium Focus that he bought recently for £300 and which weighs in at well over 10kg.

He thrashed several thousand competitors all of whom appeared to be riding bikes costing on average of upwards of £3000 each, almost all of them carbon-framed with very nice wheels.

It's about the rider, not the bike. This is not a criticism of those that want to buy expensive bikes, but a fit rider is worth many, many more saved seconds/minutes/hours than a lighter bike ever will be, for most mere mortals with a life to lead, who are not dedicated to proper road-racing.

You can't see it, but I'm nodding
Oh how I'd love to see this in small print at the bottom of every moody looking bike add.

I don't think I'm here for approval from strangers by the way. just after advice from experienced people who know their onions - like yourself infact (more nodding)

edhornby

'Don't ride upgrades; ride up grades'

Eddy Merckx

hammerite

Melter wrote:

this is really interesting.
when you first did Alpe D'huez, did you have many moments where you thought you'd bitten off more than you could chew? Was it harder than you thought or as you expected etc?
I know that the first couple of hairpins are meant to be the hardest, so maybe that is daunting, how did you find it as you remember?

At no point did I feel I'd bitten off more than I could chew. I just kept the legs turning and kept plodding on, I'd say the hardest thing was probably the heat in combination with the climb. As someone above has said, make sure you have small enough gears, the Trek has a triple, the Wilier a compact so I had 34x28 as my smallest gear.

We were staying on a campsite about 3 miles up the climb, so a couple of days before I climbed AdH fully I went on a ride which finished back at the campsite and took in the first 3 miles of the climb - which are the worst. So once I'd done that I was confident I could climb the whole lot.

I think at the time I said it was the hardest thing I'd done, now I think my first cyclocross race is the hardest thing I've done (I thought I was going to have a heart attack!).

When I went back last year I was a lot more accomplished cyclist, so last year doesn't really compare.

MartinB2444

Regarding turbo trainers. I bought a TACX flow ergo trainer last autumn which I have been very pleased with. There are plenty of cheaper trainers but the TACX has 10 resistance levels adjustable from a remote unit fitted to handlebars, can be used with a hear rate monitor and tells you your power output. One really neat thing is that it has 2 modes of operation, one where you set the resistance and then adjust the work you do by changing gears, pedalling harder etc and the other where the power is fixed and the resistance varies automatically depending on cadence. The power readings are never going to be real world accurate but they are consistent from session to session once the unit is warmed up.

Turbo trainers aren't a bundle of fun and churning out 250W or a threshold heart rate for 15 mins on a turbo feels a lot harder than going up a long hill for the same level of work. But they are great for specific, controllable training. A great wet, windy alternative especially during the winter. They are especially good for high intensity interval type training. An hour is enough for me although I'm told that training DVDs can take the monotony out of it a little.

You will also need a big fan!

Having a bike that you know and feel comfy riding trumps anything else by a long way

ineedalager

I would buy it again just because its a nice bike, but as I said i don't need it to make me faster your improved fitness will do that. I am not denying a lighter bike will be a big help if your climbing big mountains like Alpe D'huez!

My winter hack was a 4 year old Chris Boardman hybrid (11kgs!) which I converted to drop handle bars. I was riding it up a local 1 mile climb when 3 young guys of road bikes came by. I followed them up and overtook 2 of them who were suffering 2/3rds of the way up. I rode away from then feeling pretty chuffed at my climbing that day. So not down to my heavy bike my fitness did it they were riding much better bikes than me and they had a 20 year age advantage!

Melter

ok, thanks all for your excellent input.

I have decided to stay with my present setup and take these steps;
I can drive a little way to a climb that will give me (approx)100m in about 1.5km (if anyone knows Kent, it's Wye Downs, Cold Harbour road). I see this as fairly representative. I'll test my staying power here and see whether the turbo trainer sessions are necessary to start with. I have a few weeks off coming up, will be able to work hard till September and maybe try an ascent in September.
If I don't feel like I can get myself ready in time, I suppose I'll have to wait till next spring and then I'll have a hard Winter of Turbo training to endure
The more I think about it, the more I feel like I'm planning for K2, I'm surprisingly nervous already.