Home Cinema: Projectors vs TV.. sound systems

davis

I'm thinking I need to have a look at getting myself a home cinema-type setup.

I don't watch much "normal" TV. I don't even have one at the moment (nor do I pay for or need a TV license), so I'm not sure I actually want a TV. I watch DVD boxsets if they're worth it, but wouldn't switch a TV on unless there was something I wanted to watch. The only trouble with this is it makes keeping up with the Tour quite tricky! (ITV Player is hideous, and I will *not* watch adverts).

So, I'm thinking a projector might be an option. I love cinema, but don't really enjoy going to the cinema, so I think a projector might be a good bet, as I should be able to get the "event feel" for a film. I've also never been a big fan of surround sound systems, and would likely just use my (decent) stereo system for sound.
The room it'd go into is probably about 4m x 4m usable space for the projector, and I'd probably be running a media PC-type affair, and a PS3 for DVD/Bluray/some games. Notional, totally hypothetical, budget is somewhere around 2k.

One of my eyes doesn't work that well, which means that 3D TV is of limited (and decreasing with time) importance. Reading that back, it also sounds like I'm a deliberate luddite.

Has anyone got any experience of projector systems? Comparisons to current TVs?

Wheelspinner

Projectors are excellent quality, especially if your source is good, and provided you are using a decent screen for it. In comparison to TV, they are expensive until you get to larger image size where they start to become more comparable. Projectors work better in dark rooms too (no image backlighting) - if you do much watching in a bright room, then a projector may suffer in comparison.

How far from the image will you be sitting? Rough rule is that the image "size" should be at least 1/3 of the distance you sit from it, so if you are 4 metres away, you want at least a 130cm (diagonal) screen. That's about what I have at home here, and tbh... it's the smallest I'd want the screen at that range. IMO you want at least a 55" or 60" TV for that size room as a minimum.

I have a (superb) TV, but if starting from scratch I'd do a projector I think if it's in a dedicated room.

The main issue you will have with the stereo is that pretty much everything on DVD is mixed assuming you have a 5.1 channel system, with the dialogue at front centre. The 2 channel "down-mixes" never seem to get that right and movies can end up unintelligible. Plus, you need a sub for LFE in movies. My stereo is pretty good (Sonus Faber floorstanders) but it struggles with the effects track big time. Bought a high grade Velodyne sub and the difference is dramatic.

pastryboy

I think you're on the right lines audio-wise. I wouldn't go back to have a full surround setup now (unless maybe I had a totally dedicated room and money was no object) and would opt for two good speakers instead. Apart from a few whizz-bang sound effects occasionally come from behind, I never found much point to having all those speakers and the associated clutter.

I had a projector for a few years. The upsides are pretty obvious.

However, the downsides are that you need to put it somewhere central and run wires to it. Does that fit in with your room? Can you ceiling mount it? Also bear in mind they chuck out a fair bit of noise and heat which is annoying if you're sitting nearby. You also need it to be completely dark in the room for decent results.

Technology might have moved on a bit since I had mine but on mine the LCD panel started to fail and I was getting blurred colours on the screen. The likelihood the £200 bulb would fail in the not too distant future meant that it was not a realistic option to look at getting the panel replaced so I just donated the projector to a church to use as a backup.

I personally wouldn't go for one unless you've got a dedicated room. They're not really good for anything that needs to be used as a living space.

davis

pastryboy wrote:

However, the downsides are that you need to put it somewhere central and run wires to it. Does that fit in with your room? Can you ceiling mount it? Also bear in mind they chuck out a fair bit of noise and heat which is annoying if you're sitting nearby. You also need it to be completely dark in the room for decent results.

Yes, I can ceiling-mount it. The plan is to redecorate in some fashion, including some blackout curtains. I get the feeling that the noise (20dB-ish @ 1m) isn't going to be too bad; they're certainly much quieter than they used to be!

Wheelspinner

I think you can certainly do without the rear channels sound most of the time, but centre and sub make a huge difference. Second hand can be a good thing for these too - hi-fi just like bikes, people "upgrade" all the time, meaning bargains can be had!

Decent quality AVR's are inexpensive these days too from Marantz, NAD and the other usual suspects.

I have a dedicated room, just built 6 months ago, nice and dark, cosy, and acoustically quite good. The Tour in HD is looking fabulous!

nicklouse

in stead of the stereo i would look at a sound bar as they do seem to work quite well.

be aware that if you are using any TV catch up program you should be paying for the licence plus if you have equipment able to recive and playback transmitted TV...... but each to there own.

I also looked and still am looking down the projector route. but as yet i am not convinced. but when you get to about 2K then the projectors do seem to be making sence.

but will be staying with the 50" Pionner plasma till it breaks.

mossychops

Keep an eye for bargain Kef Q's on eBay. I have seem some really good speakers very cheap.

You also only need a TV license if you are watching an internet stream while it's being broadcast. If you watch something on the Iplayer after it's been on live TV no license is required (I don't watch any live TV and the licensing people have confirmed this is OK)

I borrowed a projector from work recently to have a go with to see if I would buy a projector or a big TV and the size/feeling of the picture gives a much more "epic picture" feel on a projector than a TV. I would say from experience that proper surround sound makes more difference to the feeling of a movie than the screen too and if my budget could afford either surround sound and a smaller TV or a projector and stereo sound I would go for the sound (I even find the biggest difference with Blu-ray over DVD is the increase in sound quality rather than the picture - I know people will argue you can't hear the difference etc but I promise you I can even in double blind tests)

dhope

mossychops wrote:

You also only need a TV license if you are watching an internet stream while it's being broadcast.

As an aside, BBC have started doing high profile streaming broadcasts with the ability to rewind during the live broadcast. Can you go to a broadcast, rewind 10 seconds and no longer be watching 'live'?

davis

nicklouse wrote:

in stead of the stereo i would look at a sound bar as they do seem to work quite well.

Interesting -- not heard of them, thanks. Edit: Oh, them. Yuck. Think I'd rather self-build a decent centre-channel speaker.

be aware that if you are using any TV catch up program you should be paying for the licence plus if you have equipment able to recive and playback transmitted TV...... but each to there own.

Nope, you don't. I've checked this out -- you only need a license if you watch (or record) a program as it's being broadcast. If you wait until the program's totally finished (e.g. even wait a minute until after it's finished), then you don't need one

Thanks though. It's starting to suggest it might be worth it if I do it well, and get a big enough screen.

DrLex

FWIW, I bought a cheapie VGA projector for £200 a few years back and use it with an existing 2.1 hi-fi and either a digibox or a HDD media player. Ideal for the occasional film night & was fine for the Wimbledon final last weekend; quick to plug in & point at the wall. About an 80" diagonal picture as opposed to the 30" T.V., so a mini-cinema feel, enhanced by the provision of popcorn (salted, natch!).

Combination of parsimony & lack of time to watch more frequently has prevented going to the next stage of HD projector, screen & full 5.1, but have been v. impressed with friends' set-ups along such lines.

London_Falcon

I went for an entry level home cinema from Sony. For me the problem was having the rear two speakers for the full 5.1 surround sound treatment and ensuring SWMBO didn't blow a fuse with either wiring or obstrusive speakers.

I went for small (large hardback book size) wireless rear speakers which sit out of the way behind the sofa when not in use.

They might not be as good as more expensive set-ups but, frankly, in the space available I'm not sure I'd hear the difference. It has an upscaling DVD player included and I also have SKY HD+ and a PS3 connected.

Finally it also allows me to dock an ipod/iphone and play music through the speakers, which sounds pretty cool.

It was around the £200 mark 3 yrs ago.

daviesee

I have 2 TV set ups in different locations.
1. A base level Tannoy 5.1 surround system hooked up to an Arcam A/V amp. Discrete to keep SWMBO happy.
2. Connected to a Roksan Kandy stereo amp & speakers.

The stereo system blows the surround system out of the water and the difference in sound can be clearly heard, even in a small room.

One day I will manage to combine the systems. One day.......

rick_chasey

[ignorant] Can't you just get a massive f*ck off TV with some proper speaker settup? [/ignorant]

davis

Rick Chasey wrote:

[ignorant] Can't you just get a massive f*ck off TV with some proper speaker settup? [/ignorant]

I'm not sure I actually want a TV. I don't particularly like massive black screens nailed to the wall (plus it'd be very visible from the street; a roll-up screen and projector mounted to the ceiling less so). I like the idea of the "event" of watching a film -- if it's a decent film, then it's worth kicking back properly and paying f*cking attention to.

mossychops

dhope wrote:

As an aside, BBC have started doing high profile streaming broadcasts with the ability to rewind during the live broadcast. Can you go to a broadcast, rewind 10 seconds and no longer be watching 'live'?

TV licensing people say this is the same as "live". CatchupTV re-broadcast all freeview channels over the web with a few second delay in processing - some people are claiming that this doesn't count. I think it would be a very messy grey issue and to be fair you know what you are doing when you do this.

gbsahne001

At work we've just quoted a system that has a 152" tv as part of the job; a snip at £380k

rick_chasey

davis wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

[ignorant] Can't you just get a massive f*ck off TV with some proper speaker settup? [/ignorant]

I'm not sure I actually want a TV. I don't particularly like massive black screens nailed to the wall (plus it'd be very visible from the street; a roll-up screen and projector mounted to the ceiling less so). I like the idea of the "event" of watching a film -- if it's a decent film, then it's worth kicking back properly and paying f*cking attention to.

Fair enough.

Can you get projectors in the HD?

PBo

Can't comment on the projector, but here's my sound solution....

Ok sized sitting room, with usual array of furniture...NOT a dedicated room, and in a block of flats which don't have the best sound proofing. The living room layout means that I've had to compromise speaker position from a hi fi point of view, so having them in appropriate position for home cinema isn't the end of the world.

I like my Rotel/tannoy amp/speaker hi fi set up. My hifi is a bigger priority than movies. So purchased a yamaha processor which allows the main L/R channel signal to be fed back out - into the amp.

So hifi plays as normal, and is the primary system. I then purchased tannoy centre and rear proper speakers (not satellite), and attached to yamaha.

Want a movie? Turn yamaha on. Select appropriate input on rotel amp and use hifi speakers as L/R channel (I calibrated levels, so I just turn hifi amp volume to 12 o clock - then whole volume is controlled by yamaha).

I don't use a subwoofer, because even my modest (but good quality speakers) produce plenty of bangs and rumbles - any more and I'd be upsetting neighbours and waking the 6yo.

Mr Sworld

davis wrote:

One of my eyes doesn't work that well, which means that 3D TV is of limited (and decreasing with time) importance. Reading that back, it also sounds like I'm a deliberate luddite.

If you have problems watching 3D films I would highly recommend to go and audition your choice of projector before you buy it.

There is a problem with DLP projectors than can cause a small percentage of the population to see a 'rainbow' effect on the image.

http://www.projectorpoint.co.uk/ProjectorLCDvsDLP.htm

davis

Mr Sworld wrote:

davis wrote:

One of my eyes doesn't work that well, which means that 3D TV is of limited (and decreasing with time) importance. Reading that back, it also sounds like I'm a deliberate luddite.

If you have problems watching 3D films I would highly recommend to go and audition your choice of projector before you buy it.

There is a problem with DLP projectors than can cause a small percentage of the population to see a 'rainbow' effect on the image.

http://www.projectorpoint.co.uk/ProjectorLCDvsDLP.htm

Yep, thanks; I'm planning to take a day off and sit in a darkened room erm... indulging myself. It'll end up costing a fortune, and I'll be left sweaty and breathless.

jedster

If you are really going to be focused on movies, occasional box sets, don't watch much casual TV and are happy sitting in the dark then I'm sure a projector would be a good solution. Personally I prefer the flexibility of a TV and think that my 50" plasma on the wall is no more of an eyesore than a projector and screen hanging from the ceiling but ugliness is in the eye of the beholder

If you have a decent hifi then I think there's a lot to be said for sticking with the 2 channels you already have. I broadly agree with the comments saying that the rear effects speakers don't add all that much. Also you need a good centre speaker AND a good amp channel for it to better a GOOD stereo. That said, I do have a mid-range Sony AV receiver that feeds in-ceiling surround speakers and a centre speaker. I take pre-out signals from it to my hifi to drive left and right front speakers because those channels are of a totally different standard (Naim/Linn). That package does add something to movies versus just feeding everything through the hifi. I'm not sure I'd have bothered with the surround speakers if we hadn't been putting in a new ceiling!

DrLex

PBo wrote:

[...]

I don't use a subwoofer, because even my modest (but good quality speakers) produce plenty of bangs and rumbles - any more and I'd be upsetting neighbours and waking the 6yo.

I my Sub-woofer - being in a detached property with no neighbours for a few hundred yards, it makes for the cinematic effect (it also dramatically enhances the hi-fi experience); you are a kind and considerate fellow.

adm1

Wheelspinner wrote:

Plus, you need a sub for LFE in movies.

Oh no you don't.

I have a pair of 1975(ish) Teledyne Acoustic Research AR9 stereo speakers as my TV speakers.

They each have 2 x 12" side firing bass drivers in the bottom of the cabinets - and amazingly flat response. There are (AFAIK) no commercially available dedicated subwoofers that even come close (OK - there may be, but they'll be incredibly exotic and expensive).

I may be an extreme case though....