I am a 4th cat....................

AndyD2574

............and I have raced 3 road races this year (no points yet!!) but have just tried my first 10 mile TT and think I have found my event!

If I place in a TT is the points system the same and if I get points in a TT does that mean they are 'transferable' to road racing...........................what I mean is if I get 10 points in a RR I become a cat 3..............is it the same in TT of does it not matter how and where you get the points??

Bit confused.

Cheers

acidstrato

there is no points/category system in time trialling related to British Cycling

some TTs work by age groups but not ability level

dulldave

...unless you do a stage race and pace in the prologue or time trial

acidstrato

fair point but theres not an abundunce of those open to 3/4th cats

I've entered one in 3 years of racing

dru

no.

TT's are run seperately and independantly (apart from what has been pointed out) to road racing.

jibberjim

There are a couple of 2-up TT's with points in Surrey later in the year. And a 4-up.

giropaul

It's not such an obvious question for someone from Scotland, like the OP. The RTTC isn't the govening body for time trials there. Can someone from Scotland help out with information here please?

Thick Tester

As most seasoned testers will tell you, time trial are pointless.

In Scotland they appear to be classed as regional C events which carry no points for individual events, but may for an entire series win - but these would be low - akin to that of a local track league

oldwelshman

acidstrato wrote:

fair point but theres not an abundunce of those open to 3/4th cats

I've entered one in 3 years of racing

Theres two in wales, the RAS and the Etape.

glasgowbhoy

Andy,

The Nick Hardy 3/4 Stage race in April and the Dundee Stage race 3/4 this year (its back to a 2/3/4 next year) along with the Moray Stage race 2/3/4 on July 21st this year, all have prologue TT stages with points 10- 1 for the first 10 riders. In saying that it's probably harder to get in the top ten of the TT's in these events than in the top ten of a 4th cat race.

okgo

What would be the point of moving up to 2nd category by doing TT's if you can't get points in a 3/4 road race?

Just wondering as it seems like you maybe want to lose the 4th cat tag, but not sure of the real reason...

acidstrato

oldwelshman wrote:

acidstrato wrote:

fair point but theres not an abundunce of those open to 3/4th cats

I've entered one in 3 years of racing

Theres two in wales, the RAS and the Etape.

yep familiar with them. Too hard for me.

glasgowbhoy

okgo wrote:

What would be the point of moving up to 2nd category by doing TT's if you can't get points in a 3/4 road race?

...

This is a fair point. There's no point if you can't place in an entry level road race. To a lesser extent but still valid a lot of people down south seem to rack up points through the abundance of crit races available then get stuffed for ages when they are pitched in with decent 2nd and 3rd cats on undulating/hilly road races which are the norm.

springtide9

.... the whole circuit racing is frustrating! [ and I'm sure this is mostly 4th cat specific ]
.. and this is only coming from someone who had only ridden 3x cat 4 races!

They seem to be an hour long with a very easy intensity. "Down South" they are generally on open circuits, airfields, car circuits etc that are very open and prone to wind.

Because of the wind, no one wants to lead and there is little understanding on working as a team to rotate the front riders to spread the effort (I include myself in the lack of understanding bit btw).

Winning appears to be about being in the right place at the right time for the sprint, but sitting in the pack (or back) and avoiding any of the hard efforts up front.

What is annoying, is that it is far more fun up front and pretty dull sitting on the tail.

Break away's never appear to work.. the pack just speeds up, swallows up the front leaders and spits them out the back (until they recover)

The biggest problem with "break aways" is that Cat 4 (including me) are not organised enough (or should I say experienced enough) to work together for the greater good.
I didn't make a break away this evening, but at the end of the race I heard someone else's frustration with a failed break away attempt.

I now feel torn between really enjoying the race and attempting breaks and/or riding up front (which actually feels what I should be doing) OR sitting at the middle/back and avoiding all the fuss. (which is a bit dull).. and saving myself for that final sprint.

But it does feel frustrating driving 1.5 hrs for a result based on a 1 min effort (if you are chasing points).

Hope this doesn't come across as a sore looser [ I'm not sore, but I am a looser :-) ] but I would be very interested in other people's insight.

I guess the more you do, the more you work out being on the right place at the right time, then you move up... and the races become more interesting.

jibberjim

springtide9 wrote:

Because of the wind, no one wants to lead and there is little understanding on working as a team to rotate the front riders to spread the effort (I include myself in the lack of understanding bit btw).

It's a RACE, you don't rotate at the front to share effort, that's not part of the race, it's something that should only happen if you're chasing down a break, this lack of understanding is common in 4th cat races and so many people just pointlessly ride around at the front.

Tell yourself this, if you're on the front, SLOW DOWN, if you're not on the front, and someone is working hard without a break down the road, talk to them, make sarcastic comments about the fact their working like idiots. It's pointless for them, it makes for a boring race.

When it's windy, it's actually better for attacking because people don't want to work, which means when you get away, everyone else hides...

springtide9

jibberjim wrote:

springtide9 wrote:

Because of the wind, no one wants to lead and there is little understanding on working as a team to rotate the front riders to spread the effort (I include myself in the lack of understanding bit btw).

It's a RACE, you don't rotate at the front to share effort, that's not part of the race, it's something that should only happen if you're chasing down a break, this lack of understanding is common in 4th cat races and so many people just pointlessly ride around at the front.

Tell yourself this, if you're on the front, SLOW DOWN, if you're not on the front, and someone is working hard without a break down the road, talk to them, make sarcastic comments about the fact their working like idiots. It's pointless for them, it makes for a boring race.

When it's windy, it's actually better for attacking because people don't want to work, which means when you get away, everyone else hides...

I guess what I really don't understand is: Someone (or small group) had to be at the front, and if everybody slows down to avoid being at the front (which happens) you just end up crawling at a snails pace for N-1 laps (which is pretty dull) and the race is won in the final 1 minute sprint.

I guess it feels like the race should shortened to two laps so that you cut out the cruising around for 40 mins and get straight to the point :-)

I guess I find it odd that my average HR (and average power) is higher on a 2 hr training ride (on the road) compared to racing for 50 mins :roll:

What is obvious is that I need to get much better at sprinting lol (so I guess my 1 min power)

This is not a complaint btw, but a complete lack of understanding about racing and tactics etc. Any recommendations for any good books on the art of racing?

jibberjim

springtide9 wrote:

I guess what I really don't understand is: Someone (or small group) had to be at the front, and if everybody slows down to avoid being at the front (which happens) you just end up crawling at a snails pace for N-1 laps (which is pretty dull) and the race is won in the final 1 minute sprint.

No, because it slows down, and then someone thinks, this is dull, I'm going to ATTACK! and they do, and the pace shoots up and the bunch lines out as more people follow. If the break doesn't go, then it slows down again to a snails pace and someone else attacks and everyone is working hard again to accellerate, and eventually people are tired out and a break gets and stays away.

If you're on the frontm, and you see a single guy going, don't accellerate either, keep it slow, only start accellerating once more people behind have started chasing/bridging. What you want for an interesting tough race is for lots of accellerations, sitting in a bunch is trivial otherwise.

DavidJB

Yeah its never slow for long

Tom Dean

jibberjim wrote:

if you're not on the front, and someone is working hard without a break down the road, talk to them, make sarcastic comments about the fact their working like idiots. It's pointless for them, it makes for a boring race.

:? Are you serious? Do you point out to your opponents when they are wasting energy?

jibberjim

Tom Dean wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

if you're not on the front, and someone is working hard without a break down the road, talk to them, make sarcastic comments about the fact their working like idiots. It's pointless for them, it makes for a boring race.

:? Are you serious? Do you point out to your opponents when they are wasting energy?

Pretty much, 4th cat racing was terribly dull, but really I pointed out how easy it was behind them, and how pointless what they're doing was, they either speeded up (hurting themselves) or slowed down (which is good because then attacks will happen and there'll be accellerations which can tire everyone). Rolling around hard enough that attacks are discouraged but at a pace where it's easy in the bunch is exactly what you don't want in a race - it protects the least fit.

springtide9

DavidJB wrote:

Yeah its never slow for long

The way yesterday went, I feel like I'll be in Cat 4 forever!

The routes have been flat, so I can't even blame my weight as I have a reasonably decent power for Cat 4 (FTP 306w & 5min 410w). I'm convinced I'm (currently) not very good at sprinting as well as possibly my position on the bike isn't great for aero etc.

Unfortunately I started with no expectations a few weeks ago, did a couple of races and found the pace pretty easy, hoped on my 3rd race I'd have a chance, but now realise that it's not 'just' about fitness that gets you to 1st. I'm not saying that I feel that I was the most powerful rider, but it's a big discovery that actually the people who cross the line first are not the strongest, but the smartest. At the last race there were a number of riders you could see where very strong, pushing at the front most of the race, but finished with the bunch.

jibberjim

springtide9 wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

Yeah its never slow for long

The way yesterday went, I feel like I'll be in Cat 4 forever!

The routes have been flat, so I can't even blame my weight as I have a reasonably decent power for Cat 4 (FTP 306w & 5min 410w). I'm convinced I'm (currently) not very good at sprinting as well as possibly my position on the bike isn't great for aero etc.

So with worse numbers than that as a 4th cat (especially the 5min), they were still easy races, and in all the points I scored as a 4th cat I never broke 800watts once in the sprints at the end (did loads of efforts over 1000 watts within the races) but the racing was just hard so that only the fit people were left to contest at the end. That's what you need to do if you don't have a sprint - either because you're not aggressive enough to use the power and risk a crash, or you don't have the 1 minute power needed to put you in position or because you simply don't have the short term power necessary. If you're under 90kg - and it looks like you are by a long way from the avatar photo - then you should have no trouble making it hard and still having stuff left at the end.

springtide9

jibberjim wrote:

springtide9 wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

Yeah its never slow for long

The way yesterday went, I feel like I'll be in Cat 4 forever!

The routes have been flat, so I can't even blame my weight as I have a reasonably decent power for Cat 4 (FTP 306w & 5min 410w). I'm convinced I'm (currently) not very good at sprinting as well as possibly my position on the bike isn't great for aero etc.

So with worse numbers than that as a 4th cat (especially the 5min), they were still easy races, and in all the points I scored as a 4th cat I never broke 800watts once in the sprints at the end (did loads of efforts over 1000 watts within the races) but the racing was just hard so that only the fit people were left to contest at the end. That's what you need to do if you don't have a sprint - either because you're not aggressive enough to use the power and risk a crash, or you don't have the 1 minute power needed to put you in position or because you simply don't have the short term power necessary. If you're under 90kg - and it looks like you are by a long way from the avatar photo - then you should have no trouble making it hard and still having stuff left at the end.

Shame there isn't just a thanks button! Roughly 85 kg (at the moment but hopefully will be sub 80kg next year)
I don't think my 1 min power is above 800watts, but it's not something I've been concentrating on tbh.

Will take your advice onboard.. which has been similar to the feedback from my (recently joined) club. Pretty sure (or hoping!) being part of a club will make all the difference in terms of learning positioning etc.

You are right in terms of fear factor... I'm 43 and a crash would disastrous!

thanks for the advice.

Simon

DavidJB

springtide9 wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

Yeah its never slow for long

The way yesterday went, I feel like I'll be in Cat 4 forever!

The routes have been flat, so I can't even blame my weight as I have a reasonably decent power for Cat 4 (FTP 306w & 5min 410w). I'm convinced I'm (currently) not very good at sprinting as well as possibly my position on the bike isn't great for aero etc.

Unfortunately I started with no expectations a few weeks ago, did a couple of races and found the pace pretty easy, hoped on my 3rd race I'd have a chance, but now realise that it's not 'just' about fitness that gets you to 1st. I'm not saying that I feel that I was the most powerful rider, but it's a big discovery that actually the people who cross the line first are not the strongest, but the smartest. At the last race there were a number of riders you could see where very strong, pushing at the front most of the race, but finished with the bunch.

I felt like this a few weeks ago...then I suddenly 'got it' and as of yesterday I'm a 2nd cat. So don't give up and keep trying different things and yes you're right it's not all about being the strongest, it helps but the big strong boys sit on the front for the entire race and finish way back in the bunch because they are knackered

amaferanga

springtide9 wrote:

Shame there isn't just a thanks button! Roughly 85 kg (at the moment but hopefully will be sub 80kg next year)
I don't think my 1 min power is above 800watts, but it's not something I've been concentrating on tbh.

Will take your advice onboard.. which has been similar to the feedback from my (recently joined) club. Pretty sure (or hoping!) being part of a club will make all the difference in terms of learning positioning etc.

You are right in terms of fear factor... I'm 43 and a crash would disastrous!

thanks for the advice.

Simon

You don't need 800W 1min power to score points as a 4th Cat! My all time best ever 1min is under 700W (on a 1min30s hill climb, not a race) and I'm not a 4th Cat. I'm a fair bit lighter than you, but what's stopping you placing well in 4th Cat races isn't your lack of power.

If you're racing with power then have you looked at what sort of efforts you can put in repeatedly during a race?

amaferanga

DavidJB wrote:

I felt like this a few weeks ago...then I suddenly 'got it' and as of yesterday I'm a 2nd cat. So don't give up and keep trying different things and yes you're right it's not all about being the strongest, it helps but the big strong boys sit on the front for the entire race and finish way back in the bunch because they are knackered

It's possible to be strong and smart of course.

jibberjim

amaferanga wrote:

You don't need 800W 1min power to score points as a 4th Cat!

I never said you needed an 800w 1 minute did I? I meant that I never did 800w for a single second at any point during the sprints of all the 4th cat races where I scored points, looking now typical last minute power was nearer 400 - although not a consistent 400 of course.

amaferanga

jibberjim wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

You don't need 800W 1min power to score points as a 4th Cat!

I never said you needed an 800w 1 minute did I? I meant that I never did 800w for a single second at any point during the sprints of all the 4th cat races where I scored points, looking now typical last minute power was nearer 400 - although not a consistent 400 of course.

I didn't say you did, but the OP seemed to be thinking that he'd need 800W for a minute as opposed to 800W max.

okgo

What is your power curve OP?

Use your best numbers and go for results like that. My sprint, which isn't too bad got me points most weeks at 4th/3rd cat level. But actually I could probably have gone for a long one too as my 1 min and 5 min aren't too bad either. Just about picking your best number and making it pay I reckon.

springtide9

Thanks all. Yes I did get what you were (all) saying :-)

I'm a bit new to using power (and have only used the PT for two out of my three races) and my PT rear wheel keeps going out of true - has to go back for a second time so lacking data.. but the last few weeks I now have some figures...



Best 30 sec power: 838 watts
Best 1 min power: 704 watts
Best 5 min power: 418 watts
Best 10 min power: 362 watts
Best 20 min power: 323 watts
Best 30 min power: 311 watts
Best 60 min power: 294 watts

Disclaimer
Now I know you are not supposed to cherry pick data from training rides (should be specific intervals), but I don't ride in that way. I will generally add intervals based on Strava segments (public or private) which are usually based on segments of roads that do not generally involve stops.

okgo

They're big numbers for a 4th cat I think!

You should easily be able to break away in the late stages and hold it!!

What about 15 sec?