plastic bag BS

mattshrops

Nearly put this into whats annoying you today but decided it warranted its own thread.

Really really sick of the bullshit about plastic bags. If you take the average shop (of the non existent average shopper) i reckon the weight of plastic packaging on the food is something like 5-10 times the weight of the plastic bags its in. This whole obsession with bags is a total bullsh1t smokescreen so the lazy bastards in the retail industry dont have to tackle the real issue of all the bloody packaging on their products.
We would have to buy pedal bin liners and nappy bags to pick up dog sh!t etc, so we're already recycling the bloody things and for me its just another way of taking money from me if they start to charge.
All the greenpeace etc do-gooders jump straight in working on the somethings better than nothing principle wwhat a bunch of no hopers.
And relax.

t.m.h.n.e.t

They are not a toy and putting them over your head isn't recommended..

Cleat Eastwood

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:

They are not a toy and putting them over your head isn't recommended..

The same thing could be said about anne widdicombes breasts.

t.m.h.n.e.t

om nom nom nom nom

mattshrops

I'm not THAT annoyed

Smokin Joe

It can be a nightmare finding something to sniff glue out of since plastic bags were banned in Wales.

buddha

I'm all in favour of dog owners picking up dog poop. But Bull's Sh!t ? When did this become law?

DavidBelcher

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:

They are not a toy and putting them over your head isn't recommended..

Reminds me of one of my favourite Alexei Sayle jokes: "Recently, an attempt was made on my life. Someone sent me a load of plastic bags through the post and they'd crossed off the warnings about sticking them over your head."



David

Monkeypump

Swerving quickly away from AW's boobies, what doesn't make sense for me is the M&S policy of charging for bags if you're buying food but not if you're buying pants.

More positively, Waitrose has started to reduce it's packaging on some items. And my local Asda often 'runs out' of bags, so gives away free bags for life.

DavidBelcher

Monkeypump wrote:

Swerving quickly away from AW's boobies, what doesn't make sense for me is the M&S policy of charging for bags if you're buying food but not if you're buying pants.

More positively, Waitrose has started to reduce it's packaging on some items. And my local Asda often 'runs out' of bags, so gives away free bags for life.

Baffling carrier bag policy there from Marks & Sparks. :?

It's good that some items are being packaged less - my own personal bugbear of metal tubes of tomato puree coming in a pointless cardboard box* finally seems to be on the way out.

David

*Chain Reaction Cycles please take note re. responsible cardboard box usage.

Pross

Been getting charged 5p a bag in Wales for ages now. It just becomes 2nd nature to take bags with you most of the time. I keep finding myself turning bags down when I'm in England out of habit, it really isn't much of an issue. The weight of the bag is irrelevant, it's the fact they don't decompose that's the big problem.

t.m.h.n.e.t

DavidBelcher wrote:

Monkeypump wrote:

Swerving quickly away from AW's boobies, what doesn't make sense for me is the M&S policy of charging for bags if you're buying food but not if you're buying pants.

More positively, Waitrose has started to reduce it's packaging on some items. And my local Asda often 'runs out' of bags, so gives away free bags for life.

Baffling carrier bag policy there from Marks & Sparks. :?

It's good that some items are being packaged less - my own personal bugbear of metal tubes of tomato puree coming in a pointless cardboard box* finally seems to be on the way out.

David

*Chain Reaction Cycles please take note re. responsible cardboard box usage.

I blame wiggle

DavidBelcher

Pross wrote:

Been getting charged 5p a bag in Wales for ages now. It just becomes 2nd nature to take bags with you most of the time. I keep finding myself turning bags down when I'm in England out of habit, it really isn't much of an issue. The weight of the bag is irrelevant, it's the fact they don't decompose that's the big problem.

The Co-Op did have degradable carrier bags for a while, don't know if this is still the case though.

David

ddraver

hmmm, 25c a bag here in holland - You don't forget many times....

mattshrops

Yeh but the point was they've turned it round and aimed it back at us, when its them that should be changing their behaviour. Easy way out ,then try to make us guilty.BS

cooldad

I use mine to take a sandwich and stuff to work (like a poor man's briefcase) store them in my drawers, take them home again filled with stolen coffee etc, stick them back in a cupboard etc, and use them as bin liners.
So I am proud and greenish.

Ben6899

What's so difficult about taking two or three "bags for life" to the supermarket when doing the weekly shop? That is, of course, if you insist on going to a supermarket.

We use the local farmers' market and the local independent food store - which is owned by a Middle Eastern family and has lots of lovely stuff - so if we wanted to pay 5p for plastic bags, we wouldn't be able to anyway!

pinno

Here we go - the anoraks view:
A little while ago, I was at a recycling conference and a rep from SEPA (the Scottish equivalent of EPA!) was explaining how they came up with this 'cradle to grave' idea. In other words, they were going to give the responsibility of the creation and disposal of plastic packaging to the producers of it. Great idea. One problem, when I challenged them and asked whether or not they had any legislative powers to enforce such a proposal, blank... she stumbled and groped and suddenly her 45 min presentation went exceedingly flat.
There are 7 different plastics in mainstream production in the UK. We only recycle grade 2 and 1 - milk bottle plastic and low grade polythene - (carrier bags and black bin liners) respectively. The rest goes mainly to Belguim and China.
Personally, if we all got together and kept all our plastic from supermarkets and then dumped it on their doorstep, maybe they would think more about the problem.
Carrier bags have this inherent ability to fly around in the wind. Every year, 2million sea birds die each year from consuming them or strangulation. Seals are mistaking Morrissons bags from jelly fish and suffocating them and Albatrosess are dying from consuming plastic debris that has slowly shredded, mistaking it for fish fry.
My organisation contacted Morrissons on the subject of the colouration of their bags and they were 'looking into it', that was 3 years ago and they remain unchanged.
Personally, I would stuff the f*cking plastic down the throats of the producers until they turn a funny colour.
I do not know why we seem to retain the Judo-Christain view that people have a superiority over the environment and living organisms when its the environment which supports life, us included.
Come to South West Scotland and I will take you to the beaches where I see Seals dead with beer can plastic round their necks and sea birds washed up, bellies swollen. This is an issue that we should take seriously.

Ben6899

^^^^

Well said. Very well said.

But think of the poor folk having to pay 5p for their plastic bags. Sarcastic? Me?

Monkeypump

pinarello001 wrote:

Here we go - the anoraks view:
A little while ago, I was at a recycling conference and a rep from SEPA (the Scottish equivalent of EPA!) was explaining how they came up with this 'cradle to grave' idea. In other words, they were going to give the responsibility of the creation and disposal of plastic packaging to the producers of it. Great idea. One problem, when I challenged them and asked whether or not they had any legislative powers to enforce such a proposal, blank... she stumbled and groped and suddenly her 45 min presentation went exceedingly flat.
There are 7 different plastics in mainstream production in the UK. We only recycle grade 2 and 1 - milk bottle plastic and low grade polythene - (carrier bags and black bin liners) respectively. The rest goes mainly to Belguim and China.
Personally, if we all got together and kept all our plastic from supermarkets and then dumped it on their doorstep, maybe they would think more about the problem.
Carrier bags have this inherent ability to fly around in the wind. Every year, 2million sea birds die each year from consuming them or strangulation. Seals are mistaking Morrissons bags from jelly fish and suffocating them and Albatrosess are dying from consuming plastic debris that has slowly shredded, mistaking it for fish fry.
My organisation contacted Morrissons on the subject of the colouration of their bags and they were 'looking into it', that was 3 years ago and they remain unchanged.
Personally, I would stuff the f*cking plastic down the throats of the producers until they turn a funny colour.
I do not know why we seem to retain the Judo-Christain view that people have a superiority over the environment and living organisms when its the environment which supports life, us included.
Come to South West Scotland and I will take you to the beaches where I see Seals dead with beer can plastic round their necks and sea birds washed up, bellies swollen. This is an issue that we should take seriously.

I completely agree with the anoraks view, but honestly don't know what 'The Answer' is. Do you live a completely plastic-free life? We generally use bags for life, but occasionally don't bother (i.e. unplanned shopping, forgotten to take them) and use the normal carrier bags. These get reused (as mentioned above) as rubbish bags, and are disposed of as responsibly as possible. We recycle most things (glass, paper, plastic, tins, etc.) so generate so little actual rubbish that carrier bags are more suitable than large bin liners. I'd happy use paper grocery bags, but hardly any shops use them.

I try not to use unnecessary packaging (buying an onion, no need to use a small bag; buying 6 onions, probably a bit annoying not to use one), but what is the practical alternative? I don't think I'm superior to the environment, but I don't have time to hunt and forage for my meal ingredients so I go to the shops. I'd support any campaign to reduce packaging, but those campaigns are not visible enough (at least to me).

On a related note, we're also lucky in that our local authority has a reasonable separation/recycling/refuse policy, but some areas make it so complex that I'm not surprised people don't bother.

The other thing that I find bizarre is the over-designed, over-engineered trendy paper bags that so many shops use. Again, we reuse them, but the manufacture/printing costs must be massive in financial and environmental terms even if they are recyclable.

Peddle Up!

Isn't the problem litter?

Monkeypump

Peddle Up! wrote:

Isn't the problem litter?

You may have hit on something there...

ricklilley

Heres a good one, recently bought a cheap rucksack for work use, from sports Direct. When i paid for it the sales girl was about to put it in a huge carrier bag. I told her i didn't need the bag, as i would put the other items i'd bought in the Rucksack. And was told that i wasn't allowed and had to have a carrier bag to leave the shop.

TheStone

Peddle Up! wrote:

Isn't the problem litter?

Other than litter, does the plastic bag actually pose any relatively significant issues?
I don't drive and don't plan when I'm going to the shops. Why should I be so overcharged for a plastic bag when someone turning up in a 4x4 with their bags for life are not?

I got charged for a plastic bag at a petrol station recently. Really?

Land fill? Why do you want things to decompose?

Recycling? Who doesn't use a bag many times?

There must be more important and significant things to concentrate on? This is why green people annoy me.

capt_slog

TheStone wrote:

This is why green people annoy me.

Don't make him angry, oh wait, he already is.

Peddle Up!

Yes, just another piece of corporate greenwash designed to "punish us" with "tax" payable to the company. Another example of this vile practice is the appeal from hotel owners to "protect the environment" by reusing towels, while forgetting to point out the positive impact on their laundry bills. If they offered to make a donation of x pence (cents) to a basket of charities for any towels reused (audited accounts being available on their web site to show that this had been done) I'd happily comply but otherwise no chance. :evil:

TheStone

Peddle Up! wrote:

Yes, just another piece of corporate greenwash designed to "punish us" with "tax" payable to the company. Another example of this vile practice is the appeal from hotel owners to "protect the environment" by reusing towels, while forgetting to point out the positive impact on their laundry bills. If they offered to make a donation of x pence (cents) to a basket of charities for any towels reused (audited accounts being available on their web site to show that this had been done) I'd happily comply but otherwise no chance. :evil:

I have less of an issue with the hotel thing. It's still your choice and I really don't need clean towels and sheets each day.

It's the plastic bag moaners who drive cars to the shops with their 'bags for life' in the back. Or the queue of 4x4s outside the recycling centre.

It's up there with those people who insist on 'fair trade' coffee, but don't give a second thought to where their 'coke' comes from.

pinno

TheStone wrote:

Peddle Up! wrote:

Isn't the problem litter?

Recycling? Who doesn't use a bag many times?

There must be more important and significant things to concentrate on? This is why green people annoy me.

Should I bother replying to this post ? Did you actually my thread ?

Other than litter, does the plastic bag actually pose any relatively significant issues?

Killing 2 million seabirds annually and thousands of mammals not significant enough for you? Are Seals, Porpoises, Sea otters, Fish and Dolphins.. (the list goes on) dying un-necessarily not a 'significant' problem? That stat is just in the waters around the UK.
Imagine if you were a seal suffocating because a beer ring has gone over your neck and you die a horrible slow death.

Land fill? Why do you want things to decompose?

Where do I start with that one?

"Total C&I* waste generation in England, in 2009, is estimated to be 47.9 million tonnes.
Local Authority Collected Waste sent to landfill has decreased from 13.8million tonnes to 12.5 million tonnes, or 46.9 per cent of total Local Authority Collected Waste in 2008-2009" DEFRA (*C&I - commercial and industrial)

Landfill can produce toxic gasses, Methane and Carbon Dioxide. Landfill can affect water tribituaries/acquifers. In other words we could be consuming water that has been contaminated or we could be leaving a legacy for the next generation. We are literally running out of room for landfill and you are paying through your nose for the privalege of dumping waste. It is currently on average around £48 per ton paid in landfill tax. I know here in my region, it is £47.44 per ton. It is set to rise disproportionately.

I don't drive and don't plan when I'm going to the shops. Why should I be so overcharged for a plastic bag when someone turning up in a 4x4 with their bags for life are not?

I see your point in the inherent hypocracy.

My point is that we should be charging the producers of the waste before the consumer. We should have a corporate tax directly related to volume and this should be passed on to the producers. A 0.5% tax on the Billions of profit Tesco make for example is significant enough to disuade the Tesco from producing so much and change the way food is packaged. We should provide incentives where supermarkets use bio-degradeable packaging.

This is why green people annoy me.

Interesting in that I, as 'Green person', annoy you. Is it because in reality, changing peoples habits and opening their eyes to the can of worms that is waste in the UK, is something we would rather not think about or do?

I am not an in your face tree hugging cardigan wearing hippy. I deal with waste everyday of my working life and we turn waste into money.
There are so many environmental issues and concerns surrounding waste that you cannot contradict the arguments for reducing waste. There is a pure ecomomical factor to consider. A few bright one's out there may be saying 'hang on, I thought we were talking about plastic bags?'. Well, the vast majority of in-organic domestic waste is plastic and low grade polythene (carrier bags and bin liner - any plastic that is stretchy). All of the stretchy plastic is recycleable and need not clog up and wreak opften havoc in the environment, but it does. All the organic waste is totally recycleable. In the US worm cast (the stuff that comes out of the other end of worms after consuming organic waste), is worth $22,000 per ton!! Becasue it is so fertile and is doubling outputs of food in areas that break down organic waste by using worms.

Have a look at this. It is not some contrived annoyingly 'green' propaganda:

http://www.ecology.com/2008/08/14/pacif ... aste-dump/

Lovely video of entanglement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dy2kepJvOM&feature=player_embedded

So I ask you to not be so flippant and think; although it sounds a bit cliched - there is no such thing as 'throwing something away'.

Cleat Eastwood

the worlds consciousness is changing. My friend does art around teh effects of consumerism on the natural worl dheres a link from her FB thing

http://www.plasticgarbageproject.org/

TheStone

pinarello001 wrote:

Should I bother replying to this post ? Did you actually my thread ?

Wasn't having a go at your post. I will read your links when I have more time, but a few questions:

pinarello001 wrote:

Imagine if you were a seal suffocating because a beer ring has gone over your neck and you die a horrible slow death.

But that isn't plastic bags? And again littering is the bigger issue.

pinarello001 wrote:

Landfill can produce toxic gasses, Methane and Carbon Dioxide. Landfill can affect water tribituaries/acquifers. In other words we could be consuming water that has been contaminated or we could be leaving a legacy for the next generation.

But isn't that decomposition? Don't plastic bags take thousands of years to decompose making it much easier to reuse the land for housing (which much landfill is). Serious question.

pinarello001 wrote:

We are literally running out of room for landfill

Really. Isn't less than 3% of the UK actually built on?

pinarello001 wrote:

you are paying through your nose for the privalege of dumping waste. It is currently on average around £48 per ton paid in landfill tax. I know here in my region, it is £47.44 per ton. It is set to rise disproportionately.

Just more tax. Like a plastic bag tax, has no relevance to the real cost.

pinarello001 wrote:

My point is that we should be charging the producers of the waste before the consumer. We should have a corporate tax directly related to volume and this should be passed on to the producers. A 0.5% tax on the Billions of profit Tesco make for example is significant enough to disuade the Tesco from producing so much and change the way food is packaged. We should provide incentives where supermarkets use bio-degradeable packaging.

Can't disagree with that, as long as the charge is done in a fair way. If it takes litres of fuel to produce some apples and a few grams to produce the packaging, then make sure any tax is proportionate.

pinarello001 wrote:

Interesting in that I, as 'Green person', annoy you. Is it because in reality, changing peoples habits and opening their eyes to the can of worms that is waste in the UK, is something we would rather not think about or do?

It's the misallocation of priorities that annoy me. (like paying for a plastic bag in a petrol station).
I will read your links.

pinno

On the subject of decomposition: Underground decomposition is mainly anaerobic. If you use digestors you can extract the methane and use it as fuel - some hotels in the centre of London are doing this with their waste and sewerage.
For organic waste, we can make compost and use 'wormeries' to produce very fertile soil and wormacast.

I agree with your point about the misallocation of resources. However, plastic bags have this habit of being blown around in the wind and end up in the environment where it wreaks havoc and yes, whilst the 4x4 is sucking fuel like no other business and producing CO2, the plastic carrier bag that people glibly use and are too stupid to use again or dispose of properly, is lethal.

There is no real point arguing about the use of landfill and the percentages of land use because simply, mixing different types of waste is inefficient and a complete waste of resources.
Plastic, particularly low grade polythene (carrier bags, stretchy plastic) does decompose slowly, creating leachate which is toxic for an estimated 1000 years minimum. All low grade polythene is recycleable.

Landfill is the end product of a process where the producers of the waste take no responsibility. We, the tax payer effectively pay for disposal of the waste, when we do not have any control over its use and production. Which goes back to my point about making them pay, by some means, for the problem that they are creating, not us.