Doping accusations vs Lance Armstrong - I'm bored of it
DonDaddyD
Posts: 12,689
I think it would be foolish of anyone, at this stage, to believe blindly that any professional cyclist active in the 90s wasn't on drugs (those that came on the scene in the early 2000s should be afforded the benefit of the doubt relating to their being clean).
This brings me onto Lance Armstrong. Personal opinion of him aside, at most the best anyone can say is that he hasn't, yet, been found guilty and therefore, it seems, until he admits it none of can say he took performance enhancing drugs to boost performance (and not save his life - personally I think his blood boosting cancer treatments did the trick).
However, the real question now is 'does it matter anymore?' That era is over and cycling has moved on, the bikes have moved on, the technology has moved on and the riders have (mostly) moved on. In England (cycling is a Worldwide activity) we have seen the biggest growth and interest in cycling ever (well certainly in my lifetime). Do we as fans, and the sport itself, need this dark cloud to cast its shadow over yet again? Do we constantly need to be reminded and fearful that the very best of our sport are cheats?
Do we actually care about what Lance did? Lance probably did take drugs in abundance. He probably started taking them to cure his cancer. Got back on his bike early struggled to oxygenate his blood, so took more blood boosting drugs 'to fight/recover from the cancer'. V02 started reading off the charts as his weight plummeted - he's not stupid so he continued taking it, beyond the needed limits, for medical reasons. Probably. So WHAT. No one talks about Lance Armstrong anymore. He has retired and has little influence on cycling. His era is past and weve learned all we can from it. Pursuing him seems more vindictive than anything else.
Can't the 'fictional conciousness of cycling' just put this one to rest and move forward?
Or am I wrong?
This brings me onto Lance Armstrong. Personal opinion of him aside, at most the best anyone can say is that he hasn't, yet, been found guilty and therefore, it seems, until he admits it none of can say he took performance enhancing drugs to boost performance (and not save his life - personally I think his blood boosting cancer treatments did the trick).
However, the real question now is 'does it matter anymore?' That era is over and cycling has moved on, the bikes have moved on, the technology has moved on and the riders have (mostly) moved on. In England (cycling is a Worldwide activity) we have seen the biggest growth and interest in cycling ever (well certainly in my lifetime). Do we as fans, and the sport itself, need this dark cloud to cast its shadow over yet again? Do we constantly need to be reminded and fearful that the very best of our sport are cheats?
Do we actually care about what Lance did? Lance probably did take drugs in abundance. He probably started taking them to cure his cancer. Got back on his bike early struggled to oxygenate his blood, so took more blood boosting drugs 'to fight/recover from the cancer'. V02 started reading off the charts as his weight plummeted - he's not stupid so he continued taking it, beyond the needed limits, for medical reasons. Probably. So WHAT. No one talks about Lance Armstrong anymore. He has retired and has little influence on cycling. His era is past and weve learned all we can from it. Pursuing him seems more vindictive than anything else.
Can't the 'fictional conciousness of cycling' just put this one to rest and move forward?
Or am I wrong?
Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
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If you continue to post stupid opinions, people will think you are stupid.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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Agree. He should just admit it and we can all move on. I think your rather creative explanation of how he came to be using EPO is quite impressive BTW, you should forward it to his lawyers!0
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I completely agree with you on this. It won't change anything, so let sleeping dogs lie.0
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DonDaddyD wrote:Pursuing him seems more vindictive than anything else.
Though it pains me to say it, I totally agree. What possible good can come of this other than to give a group of people who get a kick out of destroying the reputations of the once mighty the chance to say, 'I told you so!"
It does nothing for the sport, it does nothing for those who were competing against LA, as most of them have been found out to be drug users too, it's just a waste of time and money and pointlessly sets out to discredit a man who - fairly or unfairly - has inspired tens of thousands of people.
I'm quite prepared to believe that Lance is a complete and utter egocentric dick, but this muck-raking just seems ridiculous.0 -
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True. But, I'm bored of it too and read the post. I must confess I have ignored the more in depth (I guess)discussions about it when I've visited the road section.clarkey cat wrote:if you're bored of something why start a thread about it?0 -
It's not all about lance.
Secondly, another thread?!0 -
Jonny_Trousers wrote:What possible good can come of this .....It does nothing for the sport.
It tells every professional cyclist present and future that cheats won't prosper.
It draws the line under the 90's era.
It means that Armstrong can't just move onto Triathlon and continue to cheat.
It means that Armstrong won't continue to benefit financially from his cheating past.
More importantly it vindicates those in the past who have been brave enough to tell the truth; Simoni, Betsy Andrieu, Greg Lemond, Kimmage. Some whom have literally been spat on.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
TailWindHome wrote:Jonny_Trousers wrote:What possible good can come of this .....It does nothing for the sport.
It tells every professional cyclist present and future that cheats won't prosper.
It draws the line under the 90's era.
It means that Armstrong can't just move onto Triathlon and continue to cheat.
It means that Armstrong won't continue to benefit financially from his cheating past.
More importantly it vindicates those in the past who have been brave enough to tell the truth; Simoni, Betsy Andrieu, Greg Lemond, Kimmage. Some whom have literally been spat on.
You could almost say that the damage that was done to their careers as a result of speaking out was almost like some kind of witch hunt...Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
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If you continue to post stupid opinions, people will think you are stupid.
Why is it a stupid opinion? Let it die. The guy retired. Cycling doesn't need this saga repeated over an over.Agree. He should just admit it and we can all move on. I think your rather creative explanation of how he came to be using EPO is quite impressive BTW, you should forward it to his lawyers!
The drugs Lance took to fight cancer (wiki) would have certainly lowered his blood count and destroyed cells - amongst over things: I note that that information wasn't available on his wiki page the last time i read it.
I'will never believe that je took drugs to fight cancer and then took a long innocent road to recovery. Cancer and cancer treament - especially that affecting the blood, marrow or respitory system usually destroys your cardiovascular fitness. To recover too the point of being able to beat performance enhancing drug taking professional athletes without additional 'support' is ridiculous.
But as I said, we will never know and for the most part: It no longer matters. The 90s has a line drawn underneath it with or without Lance being found a cheat or not. No one looks back on that era with fondness and most would rather forget it. LeMond et al might feel vidicated if Lance is found guilty of doping, but in the grand scheme of things will that matter? Will it stop them being remembered as cheats? Let sleeping dogs lie.
There are a new generation of cyclists emerging and we shouldn't have this cloud hanging over them - if only through association of how dark the sport once was.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
Also this isn't just about Lance.
Bruyneel is also charged.
And it relates to the 09/10 comeback season“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
So the nastiness of the 90s extends it's reach some decades later and that's a good thing?TailWindHome wrote:Also this isn't just about Lance.
Bruyneel is also charged.
And it relates to the 09/10 comeback seasonFood Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:
So the nastiness of the 90s extends it's reach some decades later and that's a good thing?TailWindHome wrote:Also this isn't just about Lance.
Bruyneel is also charged.
And it relates to the 09/10 comeback season
That makes no sense.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
It is interesting that a Lance thread in commuting is totally different than a Lance thread in Pro Race.
I'd suggest that this is because in commuting the average poster only has a passing interest in the detail and 'buys into' how much Lance has done for the sport, the Livestrong brand and the idea that these are old charges from discredited sources.
One thing to remember. If Lance cheated in 09/10 he cheated Wiggins out of a podium place.
Thats not history from the dark ages“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Yes it does. You would have Lance and all other 90s 'dopers' pursued to their grave. I would have it buried and forgotten and those that have retired left alone but largely forgotten and not celebrated.TailWindHome wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:
So the nastiness of the 90s extends it's reach some decades later and that's a good thing?TailWindHome wrote:Also this isn't just about Lance.
Bruyneel is also charged.
And it relates to the 09/10 comeback season
That makes no sense.
By chasing Bruyneel the nastiness in cycling that was rife in the 90s gets to extend its reach beyond 2010, some decades later. I would have it (said nastiness) left in the 90s and forgotten.
The sport existed before Lance and it will exist after him. I don't buy into how much he has done for cycling. I want to engage with the sport without being fearful that x-rider is a cheat or that the result some months later will have to be rewritten. I also don't want to have my excitement of each tour dulled or bogged down by history of cheats.It is interesting that a Lance thread in commuting is totally different than a Lance thread in Pro Race.
I'd suggest that this is because in commuting the average poster only has a passing interest in the detail and 'buys into' how much Lance has done for the sport, the Livestrong brand and the idea that these are old charges from discredited sources.
One thing to remember. If Lance cheated in 09/10 he cheated Wiggins out of a podium place.
Thats not history from the dark ages
We finally have something refreshing going on in cycling (Contador fan that I am) and once again it gets marred by Lance.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
TailWindHome wrote:It is interesting that a Lance thread in commuting is totally different than a Lance thread in Pro Race.
I'd suggest that this is because in commuting the average poster only has a passing interest in the detail and 'buys into' how much Lance has done for the sport, the Livestrong brand and the idea that these are old charges from discredited sources.
One thing to remember. If Lance cheated in 09/10 he cheated Wiggins out of a podium place.
Thats not history from the dark ages
I'm not suggesting the accusations are false. Just that it seems like terrible muck raking. Lance did do a lot for the sport, whether that came about through cheating or not is another matter, but there's no question he brought a bigger audience to professional cycling (and therefore more money to him, his colleagues and their teams).
Personally speaking, I abhor the Livestrong brand.
As for LA continuing to be able to profit from his chemically induced wins, meh. I'm sure he has plenty of money already and would be able to make even more in a tell all book entitled It's Not About the Drugs in a David Millar stylie.
beyond this,he has, whether you like it or not, brought a lot of hope to many, many people suffering horrendous illness. I know this should not make him immune to criticism, but you do have to recognise his massively positive contribution.
I do agree, though, it would be way easier if he just fessed up. That way we could get over it and put him right back on his pedestal next to Eddie Merkcx, another drug abusing legend
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Hey DDD - if you are bored of it, then why open a thread about it?
All investigations dropped - end.
I am bored of 'it' and this thread.....
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I'm bored too0
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More importantly it vindicates those in the past who have been brave enough to tell the truth; Simoni, Betsy Andrieu, Greg Lemond, Kimmage. Some whom have literally been spat on.
I find this one of the most compelling arguments as to why it does still matter; I'm sure these indivduals aren't quite so bored of the proceedings.Marmalade0 -
Meh!
DDD if you want to troll pop over to Pro Race and do it properly“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
TailWindHome wrote:It is interesting that a Lance thread in commuting is totally different than a Lance thread in Pro Race.
I'd suggest that this is because in commuting the average poster only has a passing interest in the detail and 'buys into' how much Lance has done for the sport, the Livestrong brand and the idea that these are old charges from discredited sources.
I'd suggest that it is because the Pro Race boys are still pissed off that Lance hijacked "their" sport.TailWindHome wrote:One thing to remember. If Lance cheated in 09/10 he cheated Wiggins out of a podium place.
Thats not history from the dark ages
So what? Depending on who you believe, if you strip out all the dopers from the 90s/00s Carlos Sastre would have been either a three, four or five time Tour winner. I like Sastre a lot, but I don't believe in re-writing history like that. Does anyone name Andy Schleck as the winner of the 2010 Tour? (I like Sharron Davies a *lot* more, but I similarly don't think one can rewrite history and give her an Olympic gold medal).Jonny_Trousers wrote:Though it pains me to say it, I totally agree. What possible good can come of this other than to give a group of people who get a kick out of destroying the reputations of the once mighty the chance to say, 'I told you so!"
It's more than that, I think. Somewhere, a group of people are planning to make their own careers out of this.0 -
Greg66 wrote:So what? Depending on who you believe, if you strip out all the dopers from the 90s/00s Carlos Sastre would have been either a three, four or five time Tour winner. I like Sastre a lot, but I don't believe in re-writing history like that. Does anyone name Andy Schleck as the winner of the 2010 Tour? (I like Sharron Davies a *lot* more, but I similarly don't think one can rewrite history and give her an Olympic gold medal).
The ASO have awarded Schleck the 2010 tour. They gave him a nice yellow jersey and everything.
The principle of stripping cheats of their wins is 100% correct, however with cycling having been such a sh*tty mess for so long you get into the farcial situation of the 10th place rider winning.
I haven't delved into the detail too far (I'm not an obsessive) however I believe that the focus of this charge is on 2009/2010 season - he should be stripped of that podium and Wiggins promoted.
Still sticking with the avatar?
Oh and Sharon Davis, seriously?“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Yeah, you're right. Who cares about cheating in sport?
Worst case scenario: not guilty verdict. Then the accusations and suspicions will never go away.Ecrasez l’infame0 -
Better than that, they will be forgotten. Why? Well guess what, Lance doesn't race anymore and most of that generation are retiring or falling from the international racing stage. What they're being replaced with are guys that are clean and who will be talked about for generations to come.BelgianBeerGeek wrote:Yeah, you're right. Who cares about cheating in sport?
Worst case scenario: not guilty verdict. Then the accusations and suspicions will never go away.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:......
The sport existed before Lance and it will exist after him. I don't buy into how much he has done for cycling. I want to engage with the sport without being fearful that x-rider is a cheat or that the result some months later will have to be rewritten. I also don't want to have my excitement of each tour dulled or bogged down by history of cheats.
.....
So basically you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend that everything's fine. Well, sorry but unfortunately pro cycling just isn't like that. I think you need to find another sport to follow.
And it's basically a selfish attitude - these awful people pursuing the justice and truth are spoiling your enjoyment a bit? I'm afraid I give more weight to those who have been cheated and to whose who have been vilified for speaking the truth.0 -
Just to add another pointless shallow opinion; I used to admire Lance. Never liked him like some of the others of that era but respected him and saw him as top of the pile material. If he was on drugs - I'll wait to see any outcome rather than proffer idle speculation - I'd like to see him stripped of everything he ever won and be airbrushed from Tour history if nothing else for the pure hypocrisy of banging on for years about being clean when the opposite was the case, if that's how it turns out.
Being 'a long time ago' is a puerile argument. I still want to meet that Maradonna fellah in a back street and kick lumps out of him for his little bit of cheating from a long while ago. The git.0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:I think it would be foolish of anyone, at this stage, to believe blindly that any professional cyclist active in the 90s wasn't on drugs (those that came on the scene in the early 2000s should be afforded the benefit of the doubt relating to their being clean).
This brings me onto Lance Armstrong. Personal opinion of him aside, at most the best anyone can say is that he hasn't, yet, been found guilty and therefore, it seems, until he admits it none of can say he took performance enhancing drugs to boost performance (and not save his life - personally I think his blood boosting cancer treatments did the trick).
However, the real question now is 'does it matter anymore?' That era is over and cycling has moved on, the bikes have moved on, the technology has moved on and the riders have (mostly) moved on. In England (cycling is a Worldwide activity) we have seen the biggest growth and interest in cycling ever (well certainly in my lifetime). Do we as fans, and the sport itself, need this dark cloud to cast its shadow over yet again? Do we constantly need to be reminded and fearful that the very best of our sport are cheats?
Do we actually care about what Lance did? Lance probably did take drugs in abundance. He probably started taking them to cure his cancer. Got back on his bike early struggled to oxygenate his blood, so took more blood boosting drugs 'to fight/recover from the cancer'. V02 started reading off the charts as his weight plummeted - he's not stupid so he continued taking it, beyond the needed limits, for medical reasons. Probably. So WHAT. No one talks about Lance Armstrong anymore. He has retired and has little influence on cycling. His era is past and weve learned all we can from it. Pursuing him seems more vindictive than anything else.
Can't the 'fictional conciousness of cycling' just put this one to rest and move forward?
Or am I wrong?
Abraham Lincoln said it best...
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
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DonDaddyD wrote:
Better than that, they will be forgotten. Why? Well guess what, Lance doesn't race anymore and most of that generation are retiring or falling from the international racing stage. What they're being replaced with are guys that are clean and who will be talked about for generations to come.BelgianBeerGeek wrote:Yeah, you're right. Who cares about cheating in sport?
Worst case scenario: not guilty verdict. Then the accusations and suspicions will never go away.
Lance competes in Triathlon
Bruyneel is still the DS at RadioShack.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
TailWindHome wrote:The ASO have awarded Schleck the 2010 tour. They gave him a nice yellow jersey and everything.
Oh yeah. I heard that too. But who remembers Schleck as the 2010 winner?TailWindHome wrote:The principle of stripping cheats of their wins is 100% correct, however with cycling having been such a sh*tty mess for so long you get into the farcial situation of the 10th place rider winning.
Bingo. There's the problem. You strip the cheats, but what you're doing is farcical. So do you not stop, or not start? Logically, there can be no solution midway between the two.TailWindHome wrote:Still sticking with the avatar?
Oh and Sharon Davis, seriously?
The avatar is one of those Great Moments In Sport; irrespective of the individuals in it. It was (as I'm sure you know) the point at which Liggett said something like "Armstrong looks around, and says "Well, are you coming or not, and the answer is NOT!"". It's a perfect capture of the dominance of one participant, and the other realising that he is being crushed.
Sharron is a niche interest, I'll grant you.0 -
I do agree with Greg66 regarding the farce of stripping Tour winners and all that. It is bonkers.x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
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