MTB'er v Roadie

mrmonkfinger

supersonic wrote:

It makes more difference on an MTB as you are constantly moving it about under you, and a lot more stop starting. At even speed you could argue the energy output is the same once you have attained that speed, as you have more momentum.

But we're talking about a road ride here - plain old seated churning. And particularly, we're talking about hills, which is the only place weight will make very much difference on a road ride.

Twelly

mrmonkfinger wrote:

TwellySmat wrote:

Oh yeah, and hills.. my point stands though - weight does make a difference even if SS thinks not.

How much difference? Can we get a quantification?

How much faster will you go over 100kms with, (and I'm pulling a random figure out of thin air) 1kg less of weight on the bike. For a 100kg rider & bike combination. Nice round numbers! We could even be going up a 10% gradient if you want.

Exactly 2.1426 mph. True story :roll:

If you want to be a smart arse, one of my MTB riding buddies was on the 100 mile ride I mentioned earlier in the thread. We have similar bikes (hardtails, similar weight) and a similar fitness level, we always pretty much match each other for pace round technical sections and long off road rides. On the Brighton ride, he was on his hardtail with skinny slicks and bar ends and I was on my Allez (approx 2kg lighter). I got to the pub an hour before him.

Twelly

njee20 wrote:

I have an Allez with carbon forks. I would love to know what FS MTB you have which weighs less! Must be very exotic.

Yeah, pretty much :-D

The Allez is 22lbs with mudguards and PowerTap, the Fuel is 20 pretty well on the nose.

I would happily ride that for 100 miles :P Very nice.

njee20

100 off road miles maybe, be purgatory on the road ;-)

supersonic

And if you really want to push the argument - you could argue the 26 wheel is more aerodynamic, hence when some tri riders use them. As well as lighter.

mrmonkfinger

TwellySmat wrote:

Exactly 2.1426 mph. True story :roll:

If you want to be a smart ars*, one of my MTB riding buddies was on the 100 mile ride I mentioned earlier in the thread. We have similar bikes (hardtails, similar weight) and a similar fitness level, we always pretty much match each other for pace round technical sections and long off road rides. On the Brighton ride, he was on his hardtail with skinny slicks and bar ends and I was on my Allez (approx 2kg lighter). I got to the pub an hour before him.

Lets not resort to name calling, eh? I was simply asking you, as someone who has stated "it makes a difference" to say what that difference is.

If you don't know, you don't know, it's not a big deal.

SUPERSUTT

my bike is a specialized camber FSR and i do use SPDs peddals and shoes .I went out sunday just gone and done 30 miles before breakfast it nearly finnished me off but like i said it was before breakfast all i had was a quick coffee and 2 liters of water with me and no energy bars or gels.
When i got home i filled up on scrambled eggs wholemeal toast .for breakfast then tuna salad for lunch then felt great allday.

I hoping if i train without fueling up when it come's to the day if i fuel up before and during the ride i should last' a roadie at work can only manage 17miles an hour but he is 16 stone in weight and about 6 foot tall and im only 11 stone 4 pounds, and 5' 10"

njee20

Can you average 17mph though? Fairly irrelevant how much the bloke at work weighs if he's fitter than you!

Twelly

mrmonkfinger wrote:

TwellySmat wrote:

Exactly 2.1426 mph. True story :roll:

If you want to be a smart ars*, one of my MTB riding buddies was on the 100 mile ride I mentioned earlier in the thread. We have similar bikes (hardtails, similar weight) and a similar fitness level, we always pretty much match each other for pace round technical sections and long off road rides. On the Brighton ride, he was on his hardtail with skinny slicks and bar ends and I was on my Allez (approx 2kg lighter). I got to the pub an hour before him.

Lets not resort to name calling, eh? I was simply asking you, as someone who has stated "it makes a difference" to say what that difference is.

If you don't know, you don't know, it's not a big deal.

Lighten up. Smart arse

handful

Another opinion if interested, I have a 14.5 kg full sus, and a 9 kg flat bar road bike. The FS is on Kenda Nevegal tyres and the road bike has Conti GP4000s tyres which are regarded as being fairly quick road tyres. My speed difference with similar levels of exertion is usually between 3-4 mph, ranging from around 14 mph on the FS and around 17.5ish mph on the roadie riding on my own, a couple of mph faster when riding tucked in behind a faster mate. It doesnt sound much but on a long ride of say 5-6 hours is a massive difference! Hire a road bike but make sure you have a saddle that fits or 100 miles could be torture!

mrmonkfinger

TwellySmat wrote:

Lighten up. Smart ars*

Hard to do when I'm a chubby oaf


PS 1kg makes less than 0.1km/h difference to our fictional 100kg rider going up the 10% hill. Life or death to protour riders as it means they get dropped on a climb... but for a charity ride or just out with your mates... feckall.

diy

I think there is a bit more to it than weight differences. I'd say my boardman is about 4kg lighter than my stumpy based mtb. 8kg vs 12kg. Then you have the fact that road bike wheels roll so much better, are much lighter and are less likely to clip the pads a little when rotating. Add tyre contact patch which is substantially smaller. I'd agree that aerodynamics doesn't make much difference unless you are going 15mph+, but the riding position really helps you to motor along.

However, on a 100 mile run, the mtb will have the advantage of a better riding position, reducing the stress on the neck and shoulders. Also if its raining you'll have an advantage down hill as you probably have brakes and grip that are 3-10x better.

njee20

Depends how strong you are - the aerodynamics of the bike mean chuff all compared to the rider. So the upright position of an MTB will be a massive disadvantage if you are able to be comfortable in a more aero road bike position.

If you aren't it's a moot point!

If I'm riding on the road I'm far more comfortable on a road bike. On my MTB I tend to rest my forearms either side of the stem to get lower.

Not convinced you have that much more grip on an MTB either, if you have slick tyres then it's similar (marginally more assuming you go for wider ones), but the braking advantage is then cancelled out as you'll lock up either way.

mrmonkfinger

diy wrote:

I think there is a bit more to it than weight differences.

exactly - skinny tyres & aero position make the most difference as you say.

The Spiderman

I did the Dunwich Dynamo os Saturday night whcih is 116 miles overnight from Hackney to Dunwich on the Suffolk coast.

There were people riding every imaginable type of bike including carbon road bikes,old steel road, bikes,tourers,Tandems,hybrids,Bromptons,recumbents,fixies,29ers,full sussers and hardtails.

If you were a fast club rider who wanted to do it in 7 hours you might go for the road bike,but in our group of 6 we had 2 on hybrids and one on a slick shod hardtail and they managed just fine.We were just doing it for fun and being part of the event though,uou might feel differently.

At the end of the day its the rider that makes the most difference,though I was probaby the least shagged on my road bike.

Some of the "ride to work" type riders with their high viz ,panniers and trouser clips I saw were absolutely flying along!

john74

If it was me I would use a road bike not just for the speed but drop bars will give you several different hand positions relieving wrist and back pain.

diy

njee20 wrote:

but the braking advantage is then cancelled out as you'll lock up either way.

nah, you need to read A Twist of the Wrist by Kieth Code.

The higher volume tyre will compress under braking vastly increasing the contact patch.

TheGeneralist

some narrow bars and some bar ends

What use are bar ends going to be? If he's tucked in a fast moving group he does not want his hands that far away from the brakes. If he's pulling at the front of the group then it suggests he doesn't have a problems keeping up anyway.

cooldad

You've been watching too much TdF on TV

TheGeneralist

cooldad wrote:

You've been watching too much TdF on TV

Who has?

cooldad

You has.

TheGeneralist

Nah, I don't have a telly.

I've been out with the local roadies about 7 times in the last 2 years on my hybrid. It's got bar ends but I'd never dream of using them unless I'm at the front of the group.

supersonic

TheGeneralist wrote:

some narrow bars and some bar ends

What use are bar ends going to be? If he's tucked in a fast moving group he does not want his hands that far away from the brakes. If he's pulling at the front of the group then it suggests he doesn't have a problems keeping up anyway.

Maybe he would break away with bar ends... They do offer a slight aero advantage on steady cadence flat roads, and good weight bias for climbs. Whether you ride a group is another thing entirely.

I just built this up tonight:



I'd take anyone on on this.. ;-)

njee20

The higher volume tyre will compress under braking vastly increasing the contact patch.

Unless you're running at the sort of pressures where they'll be a decent rival for a road tyre. I'm not denying it'll be better, but I don't think you'll be talking 10 times more braking power. It's chuff all use anyway, you'll just have the riders behind you slamming into you!

They do offer a slight aero advantage on steady cadence flat roads,

Not on the end of the bars they don't! You open up your body like a sail, if you want aero you need to reduce your frontal area, forearms resting on the bars, holding the gear cables is aero (but slightly scary in a bunch!). Or put your bar ends inside your grips, that'd be better.

Even just holding onto the grips, but dropping your elbows and rolling them in will be better from an aero perspective.

YeehaaMcgee

supersonic wrote:

I just built this up tonight:
I'd take anyone on on this.. ;-)

Hey, Njee, I smell a challenge

njee20

I was tempted to bite, thought I'd just leave it though :-)

supersonic

It depends on the bar width (and bike geo I suppose) - if you run the ends low, it drops your head and torso and decreases the footprint. There are other ways of course, but do it right and you'll get an advantage.

njee20

Well yes and no, running them below the bars will drop the front end I'll accept, but your frontal area is still significantly larger (and it's not really more comfortable by then) than just dropping your elbows or resting your forearms on the bars.

supersonic

As I say, are other ways lol, but I have always found them to be an advantage to just on the grips. I am thinking about some tri bars or running them inboard (I have a set to fit), but I like them to climb on too, so a trade off.

YeehaaMcgee

How about you get some deer antlers, and use them as handlebars?
Then you could have everything, normal position, bar-ends, time-trial style, all in one convenient biodegradable package.