How much difference does your level of groupset really make?

ianbar

Here's me looking round bikes as you do and since I have only used 2 bikes I have experienced much in the way of group sets. I currently run a tiagra caad8,so how much difference in any way would having say an ultegra really make? Or going the other way slightly how would a SRAM set compare even if just SRAM apex?

Grill

From my experience with Shimano groupsets there is a noticeable difference between shifting response and smoothness for entry level to midrange (Tiagra to 105) with the higher end more for weight savings. It also depends on which components as you're not going to notice a difference in cassettes from 105 to Dura Ace but you might with the chainset and definitely would with the shifters. Keep in mind with some components at the top you will sacrifice longevity for weight.

fungus_the_muffin_man

Within grouper it's my experience that the higher up the set the better and smoother the shifting. I'm sure there's also a weight difference, but you would never notice it. Between different makes there are much bigger differences. From smoothness of shifting to anatomical changes. For example I've just moved onto sram from shimano. Whilst having what is supposed to be a similar level set I much prefer my old ultegra to the force I'm using now. I don't like double tap, the shifting isn't as nice and smooth and the hoods are far to small.

marcusjb

I think within Shimano world (the only one I have experience of current ranges with) there is a difference in shifting performance up until 105 - after that, I can't feel the difference (though the feel of the shifters is a little more positive). As others have said, beyond that, it's mainly down to weight - and that may not be a good thing to upgrade for, depending on your situation, as the life-expectancy of each component may well be less as you go up to Ultegra/DA. Effectively, for the vast majority of us, 105 is plenty good enough and strikes a good balance of cost and life expectancy. Ultegra if you're feeling flush and DA if you are super-flush.

Bozman

Shimano 105 and Ultergra are similar but at the moment i'm running Dura-ace 7800 and Ultegra 6700, the 7800 is head and shoulders above the latest Ultegra, so much so that i'm seriously thinking of ditching the Ultegra and buying the older Dura-ace(can't afford the new).
7800 is smooth and feels light to the touch on shifting, while the 6700 feels the opposite.

thescouselander

I've got a Cube Agree that we borrowed at home that has a mixture of Dura-ace and Ultrgra bits on it. I have to say the difference wasn as much as expected compared with the lower end stuff I have been using although a lot of that could be down to the fact the gears aren't adjusted correctly.

The main difference, if anything, is that the leavers seem to be a bit lighter to press. Perhaps the ergonomics are a bit better too. Then there's obviously the weight savings. I'm not sure the shifts are any fasther though as even Shimanos lower end stuff can be made to shift quickly and smoothly when correctly adjusted.

ianbar

thank you for your info, think if i were to change and stick with shimano i would look for 105 then as it sounds the good compromise, though if a deal involved ultra i wouldn't sniff at that. not much has been said about sram and campag though? i was on the dolan site as quite like the look of their ti bike and hercules sl, and the ti is only available in sram so anyone got any thoughts on sram sets in comparison to shimano(mainly tiagra/105) cheers

ALaPlage

I can only speak as I find and I think groupset choice does come down to personal choice and preference.

I've use SRAM force - didn't get on with the double tap and despite sticking with it for almost 12 months in the belief the missed and wrong changes would improve as I got used to it but just never happened. It was not as smooth or quicker to change than the Ultegra 6700 I migrated to when I got my first Trek Madone.

Ultegra 6700 was great. Really smooth changing and just worked for me. A lighter bit of kit than the 105 on my Kinesis Crosslight but I never noticed as the overall bike is heavier and I don't believe the marginal gram saving would make any additional difference. In terms of shifting the 105 is as smooth as the Ultegra although the lever definetly has a longer throw to change. The only other noticeable difference is with braking but again different bikes and wheels so that has to be a factor. The Ultegra definetly pulls the bike up with a bit more bite and feel but again it's marginal.

So now replaced the Madone with a new 5.9 with Di2. I know aesthetically its not everyone's cup of tea but I really like how it looks. Marginally heavier than the Ultegra 6700 but I don't notice on the bike. Shifting is so smooth and seamless and works quickly. No missed changes and under load going uphill it clicks down with no glitches.

If you like Shimano then the 105 is a great groupset and more than adequate. If you have the cash to spare and want better then Ultegra and Dura Ace will give you better but pound for pound value is not equitable. My friend has the new 10 speed Tiagra on his Cube Peloton and that seems to shift seamlessly. He is very happy with it.

ianbar

sounds like i should stay with shimano really, i havnt really had any problems with the tiagra but it is my first time with shimano.i like the look of ultegra parts lol which isn't really enough reason to buy ;-)

fungus_the_muffin_man

ianbar wrote:

thank you for your info, think if i were to change and stick with shimano i would look for 105 then as it sounds the good compromise, though if a deal involved ultra i wouldn't sniff at that. not much has been said about sram and campag though? i was on the dolan site as quite like the look of their ti bike and hercules sl, and the ti is only available in sram so anyone got any thoughts on sram sets in comparison to shimano(mainly tiagra/105) cheers

I'm starting to get the feeling no one ever reads my posts

Fungus The Muffin Man wrote:

For example I've just moved onto sram from shimano. Whilst having what is supposed to be a similar level set I much prefer my old ultegra to the force I'm using now. I don't like double tap, the shifting isn't as nice and smooth and the hoods are far to small.

fungus_the_muffin_man

ianbar wrote:

sounds like i should stay with shimano really, i havnt really had any problems with the tiagra but it is my first time with shimano.i like the look of ultegra parts lol which isn't really enough reason to buy ;-)

The reason I got Ultegra was due to it being such a good deal on the bike I was offered. If you can get a good deal then take the ultegra. Previous to that I was on a tiagra/sora mix. The difference was MASSIVE!

solosuperia

I know this is putting spin on your question...............
I put an Ultegra road rear mech on my Orange mountain bike and the difference was sheer magic.
OK I couldn't utilise all 27 gear ratios, well truth be told only lost big ring, big sprocket and little ring, little spocket.
Changes were smooth etc etc I could wax lyrical how good it was.
Did a few mountain bike races on the set up including Trail Quests worked perfectly till the bike was nicked from inside my garage!

Wulz

I find quite a change going from a Full Ultegra bike to a 105 shifters/tiagra mechs bike. The 105 were bought as an upgrade for the original soras. The 105 are the hidden cable ones (5700 i think?) and they are a fair bit stiffer than the Ultegra. Dont get me wrong its not terrible but to me there is a very noticable difference with the ultegra being a lot nicer.

Hard to say this is purely down to the shifters, as ive said the 105 is a mix with tiagra.

I wish id went for the Ultegra for the commuter now from the start, as i kinda feel like i need to run the 105s till they bust as it dosent make sense to change them in only a year.

My experience is get the best you can afford, but like other folks have said thats not neccessarily how things have worked for them.

Willie

ianbar

i have lots of different idea going on now, mostly to do with cost! if i have the money i will be getting a ti or carbon bike with ultegra but a money saving option maybe to move my tiagra set onto a new frame as my best bike and i have a sora set which i could put on the caad, till i can afford a better group set.

benno68

I've had the old Tiagra 9sp, now have 105(5700) and Ultegra(6700), the shifting on both of them is crisper than the Tiagra but I really can't notice any difference between 105 and Ultegra, I've never had the pleasure or deep enough pockets for Dura Ace.

@ Bozman - I'm sure I read somewhere that DA 7800 Sti's were the smoothest around and whoever wrote the article prefered 7800 shifters to the 7900, maybe the old cable routing makes a positive difference.

I've also noticed on some bikes that the cable "loop" into the rear mech can vary in length - I might try a longer loop next time I swap the outers as this may reduce friction.

Bozman

Benno68 wrote:

@ Bozman - I'm sure I read somewhere that DA 7800 Sti's were the smoothest around and whoever wrote the article prefered 7800 shifters to the 7900, maybe the old cable routing makes a positive difference.

The shifting is cracking but i can't compare to 7900.
The shifting on the 6700 is good but it's just not as light or as smooth as even the old 6600 ultegra. routing around the bars is new to Shimano but I'd guess that the 2nd generation will be better than the 1st.

I think that Sram recommend a fairly large loop at the rear derailleur, i might give it a go and see what happens but then you do still have tight bends around your bars, who knows.

xpc316e

I cannot give an opinion on the merits of Sram and Shimano shifters, as I haven't tried the double tap from Sram. However, I have both Sram and Shimano rear mechs and while Shimano is smoother, I prefer the precise way Sram rear mechs engage the next gear. For me it's not rough, but rather more of a positive change instead of the slur between gears that Shimano does so well. I have changed to Sram mechs on three of my bikes because of the way they operate. It is not a case of one being better than the other; they are different, and I for one like the difference.

cycleclinic

Well no has mentioned campag yet. If you are chnaging your wheels are the same time as your groupset then a Campy beomes an option. The entry level Veloce is alot cheaper than 105 and funtions very well. It is also lighter. Centaur 10 speed is even nicer and you get the option of lightweight carbon cranks. Campag's ergoshifters are so muh nicer to use than shimano as you have gear shift paddle and a button for down shift. The brake lever is just that, they are called Ergo's for a reason.

If you are not changing your wheels JTek engineering does a little widget that allows the use of Campag ergo's and mech and shimano 10 speed cassettes.

105 is a good groupset but I will always stick with Campag just for the shifters.

I agree with the point about SRAM's double tap, hateful thing that is too easy to mis shift with.

HonestAl

Want to echo Fungus and cycleclinic's view on SRAM versus Shimano. I "kept with it" with Force on one bike for nearly 2 years before giving up and swapping for Shimano Ultegra. Could be the higher SRAM sets are better, but I just never got on with them compared to the Shimanos (Ultegra / DA) that I had on other bikes.

Sorry, no experience of Campag.

Bozman

thecycleclinic wrote:

The entry level Veloce is alot cheaper than 105 and funtions very well. It is also lighter

My recent issues with the new generation of Shimano have made me think about "the" swap but i have tried Veloce on a friends bike, i have to say that it is no where near the level of 105.
I'm not a Shimano and that's it man, i'll give anything a go and if it wasn't for hub issues i would have purchased Chorus for a change, but i would'nt compare Veloce to 105.

alwaystoohot

I'm fortunate, I swapped SRAM Red for Dura Ace and the difference was sweeeet. Honest, big differnece in smoothness and speed of change etc.. I'm no expert, far from it but even I was taken aback at the difference. Pay what you can afford and not a penny more because truth be known I was chuffed with the Red.

Raffles

Sora shifters are just horrid, I have em on my bike and I will finish my 105 groupset with 105 5700 shifters eventually. The sora really suck , the shift is heavy and cumbersome and the hoods are too big. Nice smooth shifting with smaller size hoods would be just what I need.

buzzwold

I'm a bit of a newbie to this but have bottom feeder groupset which works but is a bit clonky so have been interested in this discussion. Won't happen for some time soon as I've got to up the weekly mileage to wear my kit out before I can justify the change.

Summarising everything I've read I guess the answer to the original question is that at the top end it appears little difference exists. Between manufacturers there are differences in ergonomics - some of which may be personal prejudice. But there appears to be a strong but understated view that until you get to 105 or equivalent you're missing out. Is that a fair summation?

Also to chuck another piece into the puzzle, I read somewhere that there is a difference between manufacturers as to how much fettling may be required with some groupsets requiring more to keep gears indexed properly. Is that true or myth?

BelgianBeerGeek

buzzwold it is not true you need 105 or equivalent. I ran Sora for three years and really enjoyed the positive shifting. People's main complaint is the thumb paddle shift but I had no issues with it. Even through winter commuting it proved to be good and required very little re-indexing.
Now using 105. Constantly in need of re-indexing, and I'd echo the comments above regarding the amount of movement the levers need to shift. On a longish ride I get very sore finger joints and it becomes an issue.
FWIW I think the new 10 speed Tiagra offers good price v performance, although I haven't had a go yet.
Seriously thinking about Di2!

Ringo 68

@Buzzword
I have bottom of the range Sram Apex on my Boardman and in my opinion it shifts every bit as good as the Ultegra on my Cube.
I do prefer the Shimano hoods though.

buzzwold

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

buzzwold it is not true you need 105 or equivalent. I ran Sora for three years and really enjoyed the positive shifting. People's main complaint is the thumb paddle shift but I had no issues with it. Even through winter commuting it proved to be good and required very little re-indexing.
Now using 105. Constantly in need of re-indexing, and I'd echo the comments above regarding the amount of movement the levers need to shift. On a longish ride I get very sore finger joints and it becomes an issue.
FWIW I think the new 10 speed Tiagra offers good price v performance, although I haven't had a go yet.
Seriously thinking about Di2!

I'm on Sora and I thoroughly enjoy the thumb shift. It seems to make sense having come from using mountain bike gears. No major problems with them and I guess like all things basic they do the job required. When I'm ready I'll upgrade to the most sensible I can afford but I'll maybe have a play.

Envy you the Di2 if you get it although part of me thinks that's cheating in some way. I know that's a completely ludicrous thing to say but hey ho I think we're all a bit loopy to do what we do.

thescouselander

Raffles wrote:

Sora shifters are just horrid, I have em on my bike and I will finish my 105 groupset with 105 5700 shifters eventually. The sora really suck , the shift is heavy and cumbersome and the hoods are too big. Nice smooth shifting with smaller size hoods would be just what I need.

I have to say I quite like Sora shifters. Mine are very smooth, light and the gear change instant. I dont even mind the button down shift as I ride on the hoods 90% of the time and I can just about reach the button fron the drops with my thumb if needed (although admittdly this isn't ideal).

It could be you can coax some better performance out of your current shifters with a bit of carefully focussed maintenance - it might improve things until you get your 105 kit at any rate.

Gizmo_

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

FWIW I think the new 10 speed Tiagra offers good price v performance, although I haven't had a go yet.
Seriously thinking about Di2!

The OP has 10-sp Tiagra... same bike as mine.

I don't find Tiagra a problem at all and I'm up to 600km on it now.

ianbar

its not that i have a problem with my tiagra group set at all, i find them fine.in the main i was wondering if i was missing out? and since considering getting a new bike deciding what group set is a main consideration and if i was spending a good amount of money (possibly near £2000) then i would want to get it right, guess i could take some test rides on different sets when the time comes.

Bozman

Gizmo_ wrote:

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

FWIW I think the new 10 speed Tiagra offers good price v performance, although I haven't had a go yet.
Seriously thinking about Di2!

The OP has 10-sp Tiagra... same bike as mine.

I don't find Tiagra a problem at all and I'm up to 600km on it now.

I'd guess that 10 speed Tiagra is the old 105 5600 and i found that faultless.

Calder

thescouselander wrote:

Raffles wrote:

Sora shifters are just horrid, I have em on my bike and I will finish my 105 groupset with 105 5700 shifters eventually. The sora really suck , the shift is heavy and cumbersome and the hoods are too big. Nice smooth shifting with smaller size hoods would be just what I need.

I have to say I quite like Sora shifters. Mine are very smooth, light and the gear change instant. I dont even mind the button down shift as I ride on the hoods 90% of the time and I can just about reach the button fron the drops with my thumb if needed (although admittdly this isn't ideal).

It could be you can coax some better performance out of your current shifters with a bit of carefully focussed maintenance - it might improve things until you get your 105 kit at any rate.

Just to add to the posts about Sora, my experience was initially all about the crunch and grind. After a good while of being ignorant to how it could be improved, I did my research and spent an hour or so fettling it - and it shifted beautifully after that.

However............. I definitely don't like the thumb shift, did my nut if I wanted to downshift when on the drops.

I use SRAM Rival on my new bike, and I love it. Double tap is great and precise, contrary to what previous posters have said. The shifters are stiff, but I don't mind that. And the shifting, compared with Sora post-fettling it's not quite as stealthy as a Shimano gear change, but it's not far off. I think it's still smooth, positive, quick, and always bang on where you want it.

G.