Group riding in sportive - "cheating"?

rodgers73

First off, I promise this isn't a troll or whatever, its something I've reflected on during many a sportive ride.

Also, how you respond to this question depends very much on why you do these rides. If it is to enjoy the scenery and/or roads you've never ridden before and nothing else, then it doesn't really apply.

I'm aiming this as those who do these rides as a "challenge" - as in the equivalent of running a half marathon/marathon etc.

So, that aside - if riding within a group is (approximately) 40% more efficient than riding solo then isn't that only one step away from hanging on to the back of a car? If you want to do a 100 mile ride but only exert 60% of the effort then why not do a 60 mile ride?

lc1981

By that logic, the pros are always cheating. Surely riding in a group is part of the sport. You could equally argue that a flat route is cheating, if the only thing you are judging by is the effort required.

rodgers73

Isn't the "challenge" in a challenge ride - can YOU ride 100+ miles? Not can you ride that distance with the help of half a dozen other people giving you a tow?

rodgers73

lc1981 wrote:

Surely riding in a group is part of the sport.

Not in other fitness challenges like, say, triathlon where they outlaw drafting

lc1981

rodgers73 wrote:

Not in other fitness challenges like, say, triathlon where they outlaw drafting

Riding in someone else's slipstream is outlawed in time trials, where it more clearly constitutes cheating, but sportives are a very different thing, no?

rodgers73

Like I said, it depends on why you go in for them.

bompington

Errr... That would make it a solo ride, wouldn't it? So the point of a sportive would be... ?

rodgers73

It's quite feasible to do a sportive without being in a pack of other riders. Otherwise why would they start you off in (mixed ability) groups of 50 or so instead of in one giant peloton?

nunowoolmez

I find myself riding solo most of the time on sportives. Not because I'm anti social but I find my pace is quicker than some other riders & some other riders pace is quicker than mine. Sometimes it is good fun finding a bunch of riders whose pace is similar & a group appears to form sometimes by default or out of mutual agreement. This happened on this years Dragon Ride. Coming of the final descent the pace was really quick & I approached a couple of lads going well but it was one guy doing all the work! I rode up to him & offered him a hand to which he accepted. Very quickly a chain gang formed of about half a dozen with us averaging 25mph in the last 20 or so miles! This was great, especially as we were all putting in a good shift putting a massive effort down. Sadly this doesn't happen all too often in my experience. During the King Of The Downs Evans ride I was putting down a big effort on a false flat into a head wind thinking I had just one rider behind me. It wasn't until he passed me after 20 or so mins that he said he'd give me a hand & that there' was about 20 riders behind me in a chain. Nobody wanting to take up the slack. Very poor form!

I still enjoy sportives but just find a lot of riders just prefer to ride solo. That said, you do see a lot of riders from a club ride together. I would like to ride in a group for one, but just can't see it happening.

Rodrego Hernandez

Cheating in a non-competitive 'fun' ride. How would that be possible.

Isn't cheating in an event usually done by breaking the rules. The rules in sportives are things like not littering etc rather than riding in a group.

Perhaps that explains the 'sportive' bike set up of high bars to minimise aerodynamics??

verylonglegs

Isn't this part of the old debate of what are sportives actually about? It's why I find it bizarre people worry about their year on year times in the same sportive when their are far too many variables to make any comparison worthwhile. You could get a tow from some stronger riders one year and miss out on it by chance the next year, their is your build up to the event..injury, illness, personal life etc and most importantly the weather! Why turn it into an annual +100mile TT when it's clearly not?

wallace_and_gromit

If being "wheelsucked" bothers you, then you have to change your tactics, or take up TTs. Wait until the terrain favours your riding style and then "dish it out" rather than trying to maintain your target speed at all times and hoping they drop off. This is very good fun, even if it compromises optimum overall speed. If you're superior up hills then you can drop a "sucker" on a climb, let them catch up on the flat and then dish it out again on the next climb.

If you're interested solely in your time, then just ride your own "race"; the "sucker" behind actually gives you a small benefit in terms of reducing drag from what I've read.

napoleond

Can I be the first to say What the actual feck?!

It's a sportive. Do what you want with it.

If you want to see how fast you can go on your own, rude on your own or heavens forbid, enter a time trial.

oneof1982

NapoleonD wrote:

Can I be the first to say What the actual feck?!

It's a sportive. Do what you want with it.

If you want to see how fast you can go on your own, rude on your own or heavens forbid, enter a time trial.

+1 but you can be the first.

If you want to do a time trial, do a time trial. If you want to ride solo in a sportive, ride solo in a sportive. If you want, as many appear to, to ride in a group on a sportive, ride in a group. Personally I favour the last of these, and as I've got stronger, spend more time on the front of groups or at least sharing the load. I do do this because its good fun.

A further reflection - on some of the larger sportives there can be 3-5 thousand riders. Would take about three days to set them off if they were not allowed to ride in a group.

Der Kaiser

What would you class as a group?

I rode the Shropshire Hills Sportive Today and I rode the whole distance with one guy. It was very windy and we took it in turns to lead so the other could take the foot off the gas.

I have ridden in groups at Sportives before and it is a great laugh. That's the whole point of such events surely?

okgo

The line between what is a race and what is a fun run (sportive) are blurred once again! Sportives are what you make them, if you're going to give it the big one down the pub about avg speed then the only person you're cheating by sitting in a group all day is yourself. Outside of that, who cares? The gold times are laughably easy at most sportives anyway.

rodgers73

I think what I'm trying to say is - for those who enter a sportive to see if they can ride the tough long route the organisers have laid on for you (e.g. Fred Whitton etc) isn't a bit of a swizz to enter such an event and then only exert 60% of the effort necessary to get yourself round the course? Seems you're getting the plaudits of doing something really difficult without having to put the required level of effort in.

The word cheating is inverted commas in the title because I'm aware there are no rules for how you ride a sportive. I think you're just about there when you say your cheating yourself.

Le Commentateur

rodgers73 wrote:

First off, I promise this isn't a troll or whatever, its something I've reflected on during many a sportive ride.

Also, how you respond to this question depends very much on why you do these rides. If it is to enjoy the scenery and/or roads you've never ridden before and nothing else, then it doesn't really apply.

I'm aiming this as those who do these rides as a "challenge" - as in the equivalent of running a half marathon/marathon etc.

So, that aside - if riding within a group is (approximately) 40% more efficient than riding solo then isn't that only one step away from hanging on to the back of a car? If you want to do a 100 mile ride but only exert 60% of the effort then why not do a 60 mile ride?

For me the only attraction is the opportunity for cantering through the (hopefully scenic) landscape at an optimal pace with riders of about my level – a sorting out process that usually occurs within the first 30 minutes. If I wanted to plod along on my own then doing so in a sportive just seems a pointless waste of money, as If one is obsessed about recording a "true" time then surely proper time trials are the way to go.

bigpikle

What plaudits? Can't remember getting any celebrations/rewards last time I completed a sportive?

All this 60% effort is also misleading. Let me know how having a guy in front of you makes much difference grinding up any of the big climbs in the Fred? What if you find a faster group and are working flat out just to stay with them in the pack?

All irrelevant anyway as UK sportives are not a races - which is very different to many events on the continent!

Omar Little

rodgers73 wrote:

lc1981 wrote:

Surely riding in a group is part of the sport.

Not in other fitness challenges like, say, triathlon where they outlaw drafting

That is because if triathletes were allowed to ride in groups it would be absolute carnage and lead to a worldwide shortage of bike parts due to broken wheels and frames needing to be replaced after every race.

Anyway they are allowed to draft in the swim part as well as take the bouyancy benefits from wearing a wet suit.

napoleond

rodgers73 wrote:

I think what I'm trying to say is - for those who enter a sportive to see if they can ride the tough long route the organisers have laid on for you (e.g. Fred Whitton etc) isn't a bit of a swizz to enter such an event and then only exert 60% of the effort necessary to get yourself round the course? Seems you're getting the plaudits of doing something really difficult without having to put the required level of effort in.

The word cheating is inverted commas in the title because I'm aware there are no rules for how you ride a sportive. I think you're just about there when you say your cheating yourself.

Then ride the route on your own on a day the sportive isn't held.

izza

Just completed L2P and during 'race' sections I drafted one of the motorbike outriders. The only person who called me a cheat was the guy who we overtook and it was said in jest with big smiles all around. He was an ex-professional premier league football player and therefore I would suggest is somewhat competitive.

If you want a personal record of what you can achieve on your own into a headwind then by all means keep on the front of groups and/or ride on your own. If you choose to improve your times/social enjoyment/bike handling skills/group etiquette then go ahead and wheelsuck/through and off/rotate around.

Enjoy the plastic medal they give you at the end and don't get het up about why others entered the same event and what they wanted to get out of it.

flamite

hmm on the Dragon ride up to the course split, i was passed by a 30mph+ chaingang of 7-10 riders drafting a scooter!!

they were having a chuckle, but i think that is probably going a bit far...!

rodgers73

Bigpikle wrote:

What plaudits? Can't remember getting any celebrations/rewards last time I completed a sportive?

All this 60% effort is also misleading. Let me know how having a guy in front of you makes much difference grinding up any of the big climbs in the Fred? What if you find a faster group and are working flat out just to stay with them in the pack?

All irrelevant anyway as UK sportives are not a races - which is very different to many events on the continent!

I'm not referring to times, it's the effort required to ride the distance. If you get to the bottom of a climb having covered the distance to it in return for 40% less effort than would otherwise be required, then it's bound to be easier.

izza

rodgers73 wrote:

I'm not referring to times, it's the effort required to ride the distance. If you get to the bottom of a climb having covered the distance to it in return for 40% less effort than would otherwise be required, then it's bound to be easier.

Yes but if, by wheelsucking others you reduce your efforts by a higher percentage of your VR max, then you have several options 1) feel more refreshed at the end, 2) rotate around with the front guy so you both feel fresher or 3) follow someone who is stronger and go faster ( or combinaions of these options).

The choice is yours and if you want to have a greater personal achievement you can. If others want to get higher pseeds via wheelsucking or teamwork they can. The choice is yours as to what you want to do within a sportive environment.

rodgers73

Yes, I'm happy with people riding it how they want. Like I said, it depends on why you've entered the event.

For me its the knowledge that I've done that distance, climbed those hills etc under my own steam. I'm still relatively new to cycling and so being able to do long distances and hard climbs means a lot to me. I'm sure once I've done my umpteenth century ride then I'll stop being arsed and probably end up wheelsucking for a good few miles.

lc1981

rodgers73 wrote:

...isn't a bit of a swizz to enter such an event and then only exert 60% of the effort necessary to get yourself round the course?

The necessary effort is what it takes to get around - in this example 60 per cent. What is necessary might depend on lots of variables, including slipstreaming, but if you didn't exert the effort necessary to make it round, you wouldn't make it round.

Teddy Westside

The only person I'm racing in a sportive is myself. I set myself an average speed (on my Garmin) and try to beat that if I can. To do that, you use any methods of "racecraft" you can, including drafting. I find I edn up doing the majority of my rides solo for the same reason as mentioned earlier - I rarely find anyone whose pace matches mine, they are either too fast or too slow.

Referring to the OP's mention of marathons/half marathons, runners very often legally use pace runners to help them achieve a good time, so aren't they "cheating" in the same manner?

FransJacques

A sportive is a group ride.

A time trial is a race on your own.

Why is there even a thread about this?

okgo

FransJacques wrote:

A sportive is a group ride.

A time trial is a race on your own.

Why is there even a thread about this?

+1

If all these people in the sportive market who actually don't want a fun run but actually want to race, did race, we would have a much bigger scene in the UK. Seems there is such a competitive element in so many people, but for some reason they don't release it in the correct manner!

willy b

When I did the Tour of the Peaks I was with a group of riders for about 5/10 miles and to be honest it was just dangerous, very silly riding by some people! There was one chap who wanted the riders to all take turns etc... i couldn't be doing with that so left them, from about 25 miles I think I rode on my own for the rest of the ride!