The Morality of Cycling

notsoblue

Last night on Thinking Allowed, thought it might be of interest to some:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01k290g

"The sociologist, Judith Green, talks about her study into the morality of cycling - do cyclists feel they are 'better' than drivers and have drivers conceded the ethical high ground?"

rick_chasey

notsoblue wrote:

Last night on Thinking Allowed, thought it might be of interest to some:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01k290g

"The sociologist, Judith Green, talks about her study into the morality of cycling - do cyclists feel they are 'better' than drivers and have drivers conceded the ethical high ground?"

Pretty sure this has been done before ( having not clicked on the link or watch the prog).

People who do things which are 'morally correct', like driving hybrids or buying 'ethical food' (whatever that actually means) tend to behave worse in other situations since they feel they're high enough on the ethical ground to get away with it.

jonginge

I ride a bike coz I like it.

I ride a bike to work coz:
1) I get to ride a bike. Yay
2) I prefer it to Train/Tube

That's it.

Paul E

I do it because its fun, keeps me fit and I hate the train, I could'nt give a flying about it being more moral or anything, if most drivers think that (I am one too) then tough, they are the deluded ones not me.

mattsaw

I'd add to that it's a hell of a lot quicker for me, my commute would take 50-60 mins by car, 90 mins by pt and sub-40 mins by bike. I'm happier, more relaxed as I enjoy it and I get to spend more time with my family.

It keeps me fit and saves money on transport and gym fees.

Morality, for me at least has never come into it.

davmaggs

My observation is that a lot of actions or lifestyle choices that take effort are done by people because they want to live a certain way, and they really are happy just to get on with it and really don't worry about what others do or don't do. The twist is that the person not living that lifestyle thinks the "virtuous" person is judging them for not doing the same, when in fact they usually don't care.

For example I've noticed over the years that non-drinkers get a lot of stick at social gathering for not boozing, that vegetarians get endless questioning, fitness types get told that they're overdoing it, and breast feeding mums get stick from other mums. It seems that the "sinner" is the one worrying, which makes them turn on the "virtuous" person who really isn't judging at all and is just getting on with it.

edit; in other words, the morality is something imagined/imposed by those not living the lifestyle choice

meanredspider

The closest I think I come to the morality position is when I'm being run off the (single-track) road by an impatient car driver that can't lift off the gas for a couple of seconds. I get to thinking: "If I were in a car too then you'd have had to have stopped, but, because I'm on a bike, all you really needed to do was slow down".

rick_chasey

notsoblue wrote:

Last night on Thinking Allowed, thought it might be of interest to some:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01k290g

"The sociologist, Judith Green, talks about her study into the morality of cycling - do cyclists feel they are 'better' than drivers and have drivers conceded the ethical high ground?"

I imagine many people must feel this way - even if it's subconscious.

Would explain the different attitude to road rules.

I probably do. I get indignant more often on the bike than in the car, however much I try not to.

tordis

JonGinge wrote:

I ride a bike coz I like it.

+1.
Oh, and I'm saving around £150 a month on travelcards. Plus, it takes me 20 mins less than taking the tube. Nuff said.

MonkeyMonster

davmaggs wrote:

My observation is that a lot of actions or lifestyle choices that take effort are done by people because they want to live a certain way, and they really are happy just to get on with it and really don't worry about what others do or don't do. The twist is that the person not living that lifestyle thinks the "virtuous" person is judging them for not doing the same, when in fact they usually don't care.

For example I've noticed over the years that non-drinkers get a lot of stick at social gathering for not boozing, that vegetarians get endless questioning, fitness types get told that they're overdoing it, and breast feeding mums get stick from other mums. It seems that the "sinner" is the one worrying, which makes them turn on the "virtuous" person who really isn't judging at all and is just getting on with it.

Good words. I suspect that most people without realising will also/always judge based on their own values (tis human nature). If they are chilled out then they will still judge other highly strung individuals with the need to calm down...
I would like to see the reaction of red light jumpers in their own cars watching themselves jump the lights infront of them.

notsoblue

davmaggs wrote:

My observation is that a lot of actions or lifestyle choices that take effort are done by people because they want to live a certain way, and they really are happy just to get on with it and really don't worry about what others do or don't do. The twist is that the person not living that lifestyle thinks the "virtuous" person is judging them for not doing the same, when in fact they usually don't care.

For example I've noticed over the years that non-drinkers get a lot of stick at social gathering for not boozing, that vegetarians get endless questioning, fitness types get told that they're overdoing it, and breast feeding mums get stick from other mums. It seems that the "sinner" is the one worrying, which makes them turn on the "virtuous" person who really isn't judging at all and is just getting on with it.

edit; in other words, the morality is something imagined/imposed by those not living the lifestyle choice

Yep, thats it in a nutshell really. I think it might explain some of the default animosity people have towards cyclists.

anonymousblackfg

I ride as I enjoy it and I don't want any of my hard earned cash going to Bob Crow.

On that subject anyone fancy a strike as no one is giving us an Olympic bonus payment?

veronese68

Rick Chasey wrote:

I probably do. I get indignant more often on the bike than in the car, however much I try not to.

I don't think this is why I get annoyed if I'm on my bike. It's more because I'm aware that driving like a twunt could cause me serious injury. I tend to get pretty indignant if some idiot in a car tries to kill me when I'm riding a motorbike as well.

rick_chasey

Veronese68 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I probably do. I get indignant more often on the bike than in the car, however much I try not to.

I don't think this is why I get annoyed if I'm on my bike. It's more because I'm aware that driving like a twunt could cause me serious injury. I tend to get pretty indignant if some idiot in a car tries to kill me when I'm riding a motorbike as well.

Possibly. But I'm quite aware that I think I'm better than them for being on a bike.

I know I shouldn't, and I try to override it, but I know I do.

bails87

Veronese68 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I probably do. I get indignant more often on the bike than in the car, however much I try not to.

I don't think this is why I get annoyed if I'm on my bike. It's more because I'm aware that driving like a twunt could cause me serious injury. I tend to get pretty indignant if some idiot in a car tries to kill me when I'm riding a motorbike as well.

It's this for me too. I get annoyed when someone nearly damages my car, but it bothers me more when they nearly kill me.


I don't give a stuff about the morality of it. I enjoy it, that's why I do it.

nameinuse

There's a psychological theory called 'projection', suggesting we put our own values and world view onto others, and that fits very well with davmaggs observations. I think it's probably a combination of this, and the fact that bad drivers don't understand /why/ cyclists are annoyed at them; A bad driver's internal narrative goes something like this "I'm a good driver, so that cyclist can't be offended by my perfect overtake with 10cm clearance, so he must be upset because he thinks he's morally superior because he's riding a bike".

flimflam_machine

davmaggs wrote:

My observation is that a lot of actions or lifestyle choices that take effort are done by people because they want to live a certain way, and they really are happy just to get on with it and really don't worry about what others do or don't do. The twist is that the person not living that lifestyle thinks the "virtuous" person is judging them for not doing the same, when in fact they usually don't care.

Spot on. One bizarre thing that came through from the radio show is that people perceive cyclists to be sanctimonious simply for the act of cycling. So the moment I get onto my bike I'm immediately sanctimonious?! (Interrobang?!) As nameinuse says this is more likely to be projection of the non-cyclist's underlying guilt for taking a less socially-friendly form of transport. This guilt also came across pretty clearly from the study reported in the radio show.

Some people insist that the morality of an action depends also on the intention behind it. So if I inadvertantly save another person by tripping and falling into the path of a bullet it's less moral than intentionally hurling myself in the way. Like most other people here I don't cycle for other people, I cycle primarily for selfish reasons (it's fun, fast, cheap and good for maintaining fitness). Environmental and social concerns are way down my list. This doesn't change the fact that the social and environmental benefits of cycling do exist and so we can happily encourage cycling by explaining to people that it's good for their lifestyle in many ways while still having the ulterior motive of trying to get the social and environmental benefits. That is, we can still try to get people to do something that's beneficial for others without having to promote it as a moral action.

davmaggs

nameinuse wrote:

There's a psychological theory called 'projection', suggesting we put our own values and world view onto others, and that fits very well with davmaggs observations. I think it's probably a combination of this, and the fact that bad drivers don't understand /why/ cyclists are annoyed at them; A bad driver's internal narrative goes something like this "I'm a good driver, so that cyclist can't be offended by my perfect overtake with 10cm clearance, so he must be upset because he thinks he's morally superior because he's riding a bike".

My understanding of the term "projection" is only based on US television, but I wonder if its more than just world-view and assuming that other think like us. It seems from my scientific study of anecdotes that healthier life-style choices (eco ones may just start to be creeping in too) actually raise a little resentment or even edge towards anger at times by those that feel bad for not doing some of it themselves.

rick_chasey

flimflam_machine wrote:

davmaggs wrote:

My observation is that a lot of actions or lifestyle choices that take effort are done by people because they want to live a certain way, and they really are happy just to get on with it and really don't worry about what others do or don't do. The twist is that the person not living that lifestyle thinks the "virtuous" person is judging them for not doing the same, when in fact they usually don't care.

Spot on. One bizarre thing that came through from the radio show is that people perceive cyclists to be sanctimonious simply for the act of cycling. So the moment I get onto my bike I'm immediately sanctimonious?! (Interrobang?!) As nameinuse says this is more likely to be projection of the non-cyclist's underlying guilt for taking a less socially-friendly form of transport. This guilt also came across pretty clearly from the study reported in the radio show.

.

Isn't this our own projection?

I don't think my friends ever have guilt when the see a bloke on a bike when they're driving.

I might, but only because I'd rather be on the bike. I think most wouldn't.

It's more people generally get really angry about petty road stuff, whatever mode of transport - me included.

I don't think people are being truly honest with themselves if occasionally you've thought something based on the assumption you're better because you're on a bike. Not necessarily consciously, nor for any particularly high or mighty reason, but that feeling is there.

I know the guys at work have the opposite - they associate bikes with people who are poor and therefore lesser people. :roll: - so when a cyclist gets angry at them, they get enraged because they feel that because the sum total of their equipment with them is at best a tenth of theirs, they should STFU and get out of the way.

flimflam_machine

Rick Chasey wrote:

flimflam_machine wrote:

Spot on. One bizarre thing that came through from the radio show is that people perceive cyclists to be sanctimonious simply for the act of cycling. So the moment I get onto my bike I'm immediately sanctimonious?! (Interrobang?!) As nameinuse says this is more likely to be projection of the non-cyclist's underlying guilt for taking a less socially-friendly form of transport. This guilt also came across pretty clearly from the study reported in the radio show.

.

Isn't this our own projection?

I don't think my friends ever have guilt when the see a bloke on a bike when they're driving.

I might, but only because I'd rather be on the bike. I think most wouldn't.

It's more people generally get really angry about petty road stuff, whatever mode of transport - me included.

To clarify: non-cyclists think that cyclists are sanctimonious/holier-than-thou etc. This isn't true. Cyclists are, by and large, just getting around in a way that fits in with their lifestyle i.e., cyclists cycle primarily for selfish reasons and are not doing it as a moral/political/environmental statement. Why, then, do people think that cyclists are sanctimonious? It could be because they subconsciously recognise that their choice (e.g., driving) is less socially and environmentally friendly than cycling and this makes them feel guilty. They therefore have to assuage that guilt by attributing negative characteristics to cyclists i.e., "I don't want to cycle because cyclists are sanctimonious and/or rule-breaking scofflaws." This last bit is obviously totally illogical because it suggests that the mere act of getting on a bike and turning the pedals instantly makes you sanctimonious or turns you into a rule-breaking scofflaw.

clarkey cat

I cycle because it helps save the planet.

mick_cornick

I ride because it would be cruel to deny the world the sight of my buff rear in lycra!

roger_merriman

much like others have said i'll feel angry at some lazy overtake, simply because someone was casual with my life which isn't on!

in terms of looking down on others or within a pecking order much more likely to do that with other bikes to be honest.

CiB

It gets on my wick when the half-wits who post under any cycling-related story on on-line newspapers generally called The Daily Mail refer to cyclists as tree-hugging save-the-earth greens, presuming to gauge my politics based on me getting my kicks by riding a bike.

If cycling creates a minuscule amount less pollution and congestion that's a happy coincidence in my book but the pleasure of ridding the bike for an hour to work & back and in so doing saving gallon of diesel (= £6.50 = a drinkable red) per day is far more worthy from where I sit. That and not having to sit in the car following some buffoon who imagines that the NSL on a straight wide rural A road is about 43, between Gt Horwood and the abandoned pub with the missing roof. Does my head in that does.

nameinuse

There's obviously a danger of over-applying projection (I'm no fan of psychoanalysis) and I don't think any of this is happening on a concious level, people are complicated things and there's clearly a lot going on.

For some reason there's a huge amount of identity wrapped up in the choice of transport, and challenging the foundations of someone's identity often gets a violent response. People know they're "supposed to" be healthier, consume less resources etc, and to see someone who is directly comparable to them is quite difficult to deal with as it negates a lot of the excuses people use to avoid doing the things that they're told to ("I'm too busy to exercise", "I work in an office and couldn't possible arrive there on a bike", etc...). The mental gymnastics necessary to support those excuses then need a bit more effort, and few people really like being made to think...

Someone mentioned previously the idea of cyclists as an out-group when compared to motorists and I reckon that has quite a lot to do with it; how that out-group is defined seems to vary between individual motorists though, either as "scofflaws", "lycra louts", "smug enviro-idiots" or "poor people". Pretty much anything to distance themselves from the "cyclist" group. That would be a fairly generous way to account for the apparently contradictory criticism from the newspaper-article-commenting peanut gallery.

As lots of other people have mentioned, I ride my bike for many reasons (fun, fitness, saved money, less carbon) and on my commute I really am just going to work not making some strange brightly-dressed one-man protest. That other people don't get that is a failure on their part, not mine.

notsoblue

CiB wrote:

It gets on my wick when the half-wits who post under any cycling-related story on on-line newspapers generally called The Daily Mail refer to cyclists as tree-hugging save-the-earth greens, presuming to gauge my politics based on me getting my kicks by riding a bike.

Similarly, its mildly irritating that any protest about issues that affect cyclists tends to have a slightly anarchist edge to it.

Headhuunter

I have to admit that I feel slightly smug and superior that I ride a bike to the office, especially when I hear people whingeing about the Tube, train or bus... It gives me a warm feeling that I actually enjoy my journey to work, that it's very cheap, keeps me fit etc etc... Also I get to top up the tan when the weather's nice!

bompington

notsoblue wrote:

CiB wrote:

It gets on my wick when the half-wits who post under any cycling-related story on on-line newspapers generally called The Daily Mail refer to cyclists as tree-hugging save-the-earth greens, presuming to gauge my politics based on me getting my kicks by riding a bike.

Similarly, its mildly irritating that any protest about issues that affect cyclists tends to have a slightly anarchist edge to it.

Do I need to actually say the words "critical mass" to explain why people might feel this way?

FWIW, I would agree with all the posters who have pointed out that they ride for their own reasons, not to feel superior - but I salute Rick for his honesty in admitting that it creeps in: I suspect most of us probably feel similarly at times.

jonomc4

I cycle for the 3 F's
Fun
Faster
Fitness

Of course other things like hating delayed trains and smelly commuters also have a bearing. I do feel morally superior to fat taxi drivers though

rick_chasey

bompington wrote:

FWIW, I would agree with all the posters who have pointed out that they ride for their own reasons, not to feel superior - but I salute Rick for his honesty in admitting that it creeps in: I suspect most of us probably feel similarly at times.

Ah, we're all human. We all think we're better than everyone else at times, even though any grain of thought tells you that's bull.

You're all right - I don't cycle to laud it over other cars or because I'm making a moral statement re my travel. I do it for a few reasons - mainly I like cycling - and cycling gets better when you do it a lot.

I do however take issue with cars who won't wait two seconds for me for me, yet there are moments when I get irritated when they impede me for a similar amount of time, but I'll be plenty more patient with other people on bikes, so I'm no better than the average car driver in that respect.

That doesn't mean it's right, and I don't do it all the time, but I'm aware that it's like that.

I also doubt I'm the only person on here who has that either.

Hmm. The more I think about it the more I think I'm a pretty average commuter in some respects.

Ah well.

flimflam_machine

jonomc4 wrote:

I cycle for the 3 F's
Fun
Faster
Fitness

Of course other things like hating delayed trains and smelly commuters also have a bearing. I do feel morally superior to fat taxi drivers though

Frugal? Financial? There's got to be more.

Headhuunter wrote:

I have to admit that I feel slightly smug and superior that I ride a bike to the office, especially when I hear people whingeing about the Tube, train or bus... It gives me a warm feeling that I actually enjoy my journey to work, that it's very cheap, keeps me fit etc etc... Also I get to top up the tan when the weather's nice!

But that's not a belief that you're morally superior to them. It's just common or garden smugness/pleasure that you've worked out a way to avoid all the unpleasantness associated with the normal PT/car commute that non-cyclists think are unavoidable.