Alternative to Ragley Piglet

twonks

Bit of a different thread regarding Piglet frames.

Mine has been built up and ridden for a good few months now, and frankly I don't really like it.

It has 2006 RS Reba teams on set at 115mm travel (Max), and with either a 50,60 or 70mm stem the steering is very floppy. (680mm wide bars)

Pic is below although the stem was changed since this initial 'just get it built' spec.



What is happening is, if I stand the bike upright and turn the bars more than say 15 degrees either direction from straight, the momentum takes over and the flop straight over to around 90 degrees. It is the same when riding, and is slightly disconcerting when negotiating through tight spaces slowly.

I know people say use wider bars but none of my other bikes steering flops around even when not on the bike, so I can't imagine wider bars sorting it.

It doesn't change when the forks are wound down to 100mm, so I can't imagine what the 130mm I was going to buy for it would be like.

Aside from that, the 'dead' feel of the frame was initially welcome, but I think I like the getting bounced all over the place that a stiff Alluminium frame gives.

Maybe coming from a light 99 Zaskar LE hard tail with 85mm forks and very unforgiving rear was too big a step.

Either way, I think I will sell on the Piglet and get another frame similar to the Zaskar (which has now been converted into a road based machine)

So, the question is what should I look towards?

I'm thinking Merlin Malt, Carbon 456 or whippet or something else with slightly aggresive geometry and 100mm fork capability.

Around £300 ish for a frame and ideally new.

Riding is singletrack, trail centres and local woods.

Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.

rockmonkeysc

I would avoid On-Ones if you don't like the Piglet as they were designed by the same person. The Carbon 456 is more aggressive than the Piglet. A Carbon frame will generally feel less like your old aluminium frame than the Piglet and modern aluminium frames aren't much stiffer than the Piglet.
The Piglet is designed to run a 120mm-140mm fork so it will feel a bit twitchy at less than 120mm, especially down at 100mm or less.
A short stem and wide bars would make it feel more stable. I rode a friends Piglet and it feels very neutral set up with 140mm forks, 60mm stem & 160mm bars.

twonks

Thanks for your reply. (Do you mean 760mm bars?)

I know they are all Brant designed bikes, and I suppose if I'm honest I was swayed by the price On One are knocking them out for at the moment.

I'd have thought putting longer forks on the Piglet would make it even more floppy, thus making it worse ?

Maybe I should just look up the geometry of the Zaskar and try to get something similar if that's what I'm after.

Comments still welcome though

J0s3e

Wider bars will help. I went from my Kona Blast (70degree HA, 90mm stem, 680 bars) to My Norco Bigfoot (67 degree HA, 60mm stem and 700 bars) and it took me a good while to get used to. Eventually I swapped the stem to a 65mm one and the bars for 745mm - very happy now. It's the slack HA that makes the rotating momentum of the wheels take over- the force is too big for your arms. Gove your Piglet another chance - the frame is worth it!

rockmonkeysc

Yes, I did mean 760mm bars. Fitting the correct length forks will make the handling more neutral & tiffing wider bars will give better control.

DodgeT

twonks wrote:

What is happening is, if I stand the bike upright and turn the bars more than say 15 degrees either direction from straight, the momentum takes over and the flop straight over to around 90 degrees. It is the same when riding, and is slightly disconcerting when negotiating through tight spaces slowly.

My C456 does exactly this, only when pushing it in / out of the garage door or similar though. All slack bikes will do it (surely) as jose says.

Only concern would be when riding, if its only happening when going slowly, can't you go a little bit quicker? I can honestly say it is not an issue on mine and I do some very slow techy turns/stuff.
I have got 760mm bars on it btw.

supersonic

I think we have chatted about this before, I know exactly where you are coming from as I too have that Zaskar. Some just prefer the steeper head angles - I do. That said I didn't find the piglet too bad.

I'd get another Zaskar ;-)

twonks

DodgeT wrote:

My C456 does exactly this, only when pushing it in / out of the garage door or similar though. All slack bikes will do it (surely) as jose says.

Only concern would be when riding, if its only happening when going slowly, can't you go a little bit quicker? I can honestly say it is not an issue on mine and I do some very slow techy turns/stuff.
I have got 760mm bars on it btw.

Interesting. I have expected others to do it really as it's all down to geometry. Maybe for them not to would mean the seat tube would be 35 inches tall

Speed is all relative. If I could go faster I would, but at the mo no I can't

supersonic wrote:

I think we have chatted about this before, I know exactly where you are coming from as I too have that Zaskar. Some just prefer the steeper head angles - I do. That said I didn't find the piglet too bad.

I'd get another Zaskar ;-)

Hi Supersonic. Yes we chatted about it before. I have given the bike time to grow on me, but it simply hasn't. Downhill it is nice and entertaining, but it isn't as fast as my FS up/down or on the flat so I am slightly disappointed.

I might have a play with some wider bars and possibly longer forks, although the forks are unlikely to be used on anything else if I don't get on with them. Could be an expensive 'try'.

Or yes I could get another Zaskar - Slightly OT, but are the later Zaskar frames (Race / Team etc) as good as the one I have geometry wise - or even the carbon one as you have ?

supersonic

The newer ones are very similar geometry wise, just tweaked a little for longer forks (also measured to the top of the seat tube now, so top tubes are effectively longer). The later alu frames shed a little weight: the Carbon Zaskar until 2010 weighs 1400g in medium, later ones 1100g.

felix.london

Sunn Tzar looks nice;

http://www.sunnbicycle.com/francais/velos-355/enduro-361/tzar-380/article/tzar-878?/=general

jairaj

sounds like the head angle is too slack for your preference.

you mentioned your forks are at 115mm max travel are they adjustable? if so try reducing the travel on the forks. and see how it feels? I think getting longer forks is going to make worse.

not sure what headtube you've got but you might be able to use one of those head angle adjust headsets to steepen the geo up a bit?

twonks

Yes the forks go from 85 to 115mm travel.

Even on 100mm it feels similar, so as you say maybe it is just too slack an angle for my preference.
I'm going to have another spin on it tomorrow evening and see if my thoughts are true or just exagerated as haven't ridden it for a while.

It could be that after 20 years of riding stretched out direct handling bikes that I don't like and can't adopt change.

The feeling isn't helped by the fact that for the last week or so I've been riding the old Zaskar on the road. Fitted with very short rigid forks, a 100mm stem and bar ends means that is now very low at the front. Good for road riding, but will make the Piglet feel like a sit up and beg trolley

edit. It has a standard 1 1/8th headtube.

jairaj

my 2p on wider bars. I find wider bars helps me to counteract the front wheel from tucking under the bike. But this is when taking corners at high speed not the slow speed speed issues you are having so not sure it applies to you?

twonks

Update to this thread as I have just come back from a 90 minute ride on the Piggy.

The conclusions I made are.

It rides very well through fast terrain and downhill
My forks need a service as once through initial sag they felt almost rigid.
Uphill I am not sure about. Rides ok when the forks are set to 100mm, but I don't want to be fiddling all the time.

But the biggest observation is that I think to get the best out of frames and geometry such as the piglet, one needs to be fit enough to keep the speed flowing over all terrain. I aint.

Either way, it is largely all academic now as I noticed the paint on the frame is very blotchy all of a sudden. Looks like a dogs dinner tbh and I have contacted the shop that sold me it for there opinion.

Not going to post any more about that at the moment until I have answers and a response, but I am not best pleased and can't really understand why I haven't noticed it before - surely paint problems don't just appear with no warning. :roll:

supersonic

I may have a spare zaskar frame soon - I'll keep you informed ;-)

twonks

Update to this thread.

I mentioned a couple of posts up that the Piglet frame was going back due to paint issues.

It was duly returned to Je James, sent to Hotlines and a new one returned to me within 7 working days.
All very proffesionally and with communication kept up along the way.
Despite the frame having issues, I am very impressed with the sevice and support I recieved as a result.

So I got myself a new Piglet frame and was all set to sell it on and buy something different.
After yet more reading and calculations, I have decided to keep the Piglet and treat it to some new bars and forks when I get the cash.
I measured my bars and they are 660mm, so they will be the first thing to be replaced.
Forks may come later if I feel the rebas are past it, but having just given them a quick once over they feel a lot plusher so we'll see.

Anyway, slightly away from the main topic title, here is my Piglet replacement.