Is the 109% saddle height method to be trusted ?

Raffles

Im getting sore hands because I think Im putting too much weight on them at the hoods. I looked into the 109% of inseam length for setting my saddle height, where you measure from the pedal axle to top of saddle. My inseam is 30 inches or 76.2 cm, when I multiply this by 109% it gets me 83cm. I set the tape at the axle and adjusted the saddle until its top was 83cm higher. it looked very low indeed to me on my 54cm frame so I raised it to 85cm. At this height the bike felt comfortable and a lot of weight was removed from my hands when on the hoods, but my right knee feels a wee bit sore after a 40 mile ride.

Is the 109% method any use, as there is a wealth of suggestions online saying the best way to do it. If I sit on my bike and put my heel on the pedal so as my leg is almost fully extended and use this to set height, then I get real discomfort and pain in the muscles below my right thumb, strangely enough my left hand is just fine.

Help...............Im confused

Evil Laugh

All of these methods are based on averages and are a guide or a starting point to getting the height right. There's way too much other stuff to factor in. Saddle setback for a start can effectively change amount of leg extension without you actually raising the saddle at all. Different saddles will require a different height depending on their shape. What about the stack of the pedals and shoes. How tight are your hamstrings, how are you measuring saddle height, did you measure correctly etc etc etc.

85cm seems ridiculously high for someone on a 54 frame. Are you sure that's right?

Raffles

Evil Laugh wrote:

All of these methods are based on averages and are a guide or a starting point to getting the height right. There's way too much other stuff to factor in. Saddle setback for a start can effectively change amount of leg extension without you actually raising the saddle at all. Different saddles will require a different height depending on their shape. What about the stack of the pedals and shoes. How tight are your hamstrings, how are you measuring saddle height, did you measure correctly etc etc etc.

85cm seems ridiculously high for someone on a 54 frame. Are you sure that's right?

Remember its taken from the pedal axle to top of the saddle

getprg

FWIW I set my saddle by placing pedal at bottom of stroke at the furthest point away (ie slightly ahead of bottom centre). Then place heel of corresponding foot on pedal - keep raising saddle until doesn't quite touch pedal (ie hovering between 0.5 and 1.0 cm above pedal). Test ride to ensure hips don't rock.

Seems to give me a good 'claw' round the bottom of the stroke by lifting the heel. It works for me - there again who's to say it will work for anyone else!

Raffles

getprg wrote:

FWIW I set my saddle by placing pedal at bottom of stroke at the furthest point away (ie slightly ahead of bottom centre). Then place heel of corresponding foot on pedal - keep raising saddle until doesn't quite touch pedal (ie hovering between 0.5 and 1.0 cm above pedal). Test ride to ensure hips don't rock.

Seems to give me a good 'claw' round the bottom of the stroke by lifting the heel. It works for me - there again who's to say it will work for anyone else!

a fair share of online advice says that you should not have a locked leg even with heel touching pedal , if I did it with the methodology you use , id be crippled with hand pain as Id have to much weight on the bars.

skyd0g

Getting the saddle height & setback is the first starting point. The 109% 'rule' to be used as a starting point only.
Once this is set as close as you can reasonably get & feel comfortable with, there is then the issue of handlebar height & reach. All of which may have an effect on your sore hands, not to mention gloves.

Evil Laugh

Raffles wrote:

Remember its taken from the pedal axle to top of the saddle

Gotcha. Seems low then.

Is this not an issue with bar height and/or rotation/reach?

Raffles

Evil Laugh wrote:

Raffles wrote:

Remember its taken from the pedal axle to top of the saddle

Gotcha. Seems low then.

Is this not an issue with bar height and/or rotation/reach?

I think its low too. Its real annoying when I raise the saddle to the height I had before, heel on pedal with very slight knee bend, I get such hand pain below my right thumb only and its driving me nuts to be honest. At that setting there is only a 3 cm bar / saddle drop and I really shouldnt have this discomfort If my saddle was back too far, could this be a contributing factor ?

snoopsmydogg

why not try putting your details into competitive cyclist bike fit?

will give you 3 different options to try and see if one of those works for you

ShutUpLegs

snoopsmydogg wrote:

why not try putting your details into competitive cyclist bike fit?

will give you 3 different options to try and see if one of those works for you

Sounds like a good idea, better than trusting something read off the internets

styxd

Honestly, the only way to work out your correct saddle height is by trial and error (and a power meter I guess)

Whichever height gives you the most power is probably the optimum height, but even then, it may not be the most comfortable.

None of these rules and formulas really work, they'll give you a basic idea, but you will still need to make small adjustments.

springtide9

I would suggest trial and error. For most people the movement tends to be upwards (unless they're knees are hurting).

A method that was recommended to me was to use electrical tape that is the same colour as the seatpost to keep a record of the previous height, and then just adjust the height very slowly (maybe 2-3mm at a time). Riding a higher saddle will generally fee odd initially, so stick with it for a while (or a full ride if possible).

You obviously don't want to do a full ride if the saddle is too high, but if you've only adjusted by 2mm then it's unlikely to cause any injuries.

Hopefully you should hit your sweet spot and then go slightly past it, allowing you to drop it back to that position. If you've not been riding long, it was suggested that you can then ride it for a few months before repeating the process.

Pross

If a full professional bike fit isn't an option just set up a basic bike position with knee over the pedal axle when pedals are at quarter to 3 and slight bend in the knee at the bottom of the down stroke then make incremental changes to get the position you are most comfortable (do it in tiny steps). Once you have the position that allows you to ride comfortably record the dimensions for future use although you may find you want to change position as you become more used to a road bike and your fitness / flexibility changes. I'd never heard of the 109% 'rule' previously but as with other cycling 'rules' such as max HR calculations it appears to make too many assumptions.

nicklouse

ShutUpLegs wrote:

snoopsmydogg wrote:

why not try putting your details into competitive cyclist bike fit?

will give you 3 different options to try and see if one of those works for you

Sounds like a good idea, better than trusting something read off the internets

but from the internetz you have this

Sheldon Brown wrote:

Adjustment:
Saddle position may be adjusted in three different ways, all of which are important:

Height
The most basic saddle adjustment is the height. Most bicyclists have their saddles too low, so that their knees are excessively bent as they pedal. This makes cycling much more tiring for a given speed, and is likely to cause harm to the knees.

A common reason for keeping the saddle set too low is that most bicyclists have never learned the proper technique for mounting and dismounting, so they find it convenient to be able to put a foot [or both feet -- John Allen] down to steady the bicycle while they are stopped. With older bicycles, it was sometimes possible to put a toe down at a stop with the saddle properly adjusted, especially for riders with large feet. Due to the higher bottom brackets common on newer bicycles, especially mountain bikes, it is no longer possible to do this. If you ride a mountain bike, and are able to balance it while stopped and seated, it is a sure sign that your saddle is too low. This is also true of most hybrids.

Having the saddle too low makes it harder to carry much of your weight on your legs, so you will sit with more weight on the saddle. This, in itself, is likely to increase saddle discomfort.

How High?
There are lots of formulas for saddle height, most based on multiplying leg length by some fudge factor. The numerical exercise to 3 decimal places gives the illusion of scientific rigor, but, in my opinion, these systems are oversimplification of a problem which involves not only leg length, but foot length, what part of the foot fits on the pedal, shoe-sole thickness, type of pedal system and pedaling style.

You cannot judge the saddle height to any accuracy by just sitting on it, or riding around the block. As you get close to the correct position, the clues get more and more subtle.

Most people start with the saddle too low. This is a habit left over from childhood, because growing children almost always have their saddles too low for efficient pedaling. First they have it low for security while they are learning to balance, then, even once they have mastered balancing, their growth rate tends to keep them ahead of their saddle adjustment.

If you always ride with your saddle too low, you get used to it, and don't realize that there is a problem...but there is. Riding with the saddle too low is like walking with your knees bent (as Groucho Marx often did for comedic effect.) If you walked that way all the time, you'd also get used to that, but you'd think that half a mile was a long walk. The way the human leg is made, it is strongest when it is nearly straight.

I like to think that William Blake summed it up nicely 200 years ago when he said:

"You never know what is enough
until you know what is too much."

I suggest gradually raising your saddle, perhaps half an inch (1 cm) at a time. Each time you raise it, ride the bike. If it doesn't feel noticeably worse to ride, ride it for at least a couple of miles/km.

If it had been too low before, your bike will feel lighter and faster with the new riding position. If raising the saddle improved things, raise it again, and ride some more. Keep doing this until the saddle is finally too high, then lower it just a bit.

When the saddle is too high, you'll have to rock your hips to pedal, and you'll probably feel as if you need to stretch your legs to reach the bottom part of the pedal. Another indication that the saddle may be too high is if you find yourself moving forward so that you are sitting on the narrow front part of the saddle. (Although this symptom can also result from having the saddle nosed down, or having an excessive reach to the handlebars.) [Or from increasing fitness, so you are pedaling harder. In this case,you might need to move the saddle slightly forward. -- John Allen]

It also makes a bit of difference what sort of pedals/shoes you use. If you ride with ordinary shoes, virtually all of your pedaling power is generated by the downstroke, so a good leg extension is essential to let you apply maximum power in this direction. If you use clipless pedals and cleated cycling shoes, however, you can also generate a fair amount of your power by pulling the pedal backward near the bottom of the stroke. This action also uses the large muscles in the back of the leg, and can be quite efficient. If you make use of this pedaling style, you'll want a slightly lower saddle position than for direct "piston-style" pedaling with street shoes. A slightly lower saddle position is also conducive to pedaling a rapid cadence.

Nuts & Bolts

The saddle is mounted on a seatpost, which telescopes into the seat tube of the bicycle frame. The seat tube usually has a gap, which is held together by the seatpost binder bolt. The binder bolt may require a fixed wrench, typically 13 mm or 14 mm; or, it may require an Allen wrench as shown, usually a 5 mm , sometimes a 6 mm; or it may be a quick-release, requiring no tools at all.

To adjust the saddle height, you need to loosen the binder bolt and raise or lower the seatpost in the seat tube. It may be necessary to twist it a bit to get it to move. If it is hard to move, you may need to remove it and grease the inside of the seat tube [but not with a carbon-fiber seatpost or frame: you might use dry graphite powder lubricant instead -- the kind that is squirted into the keyhole to lubricate a lock -- John Allen]. (If it is really stuck, see my article on Stuck Seatposts.)

There is usually a "minimum insertion" mark about 2 inches (5 cm) from the bottom of the seatpost, to remind you to leave enough post inside the seat tube for security. If in doubt, pull it all the way out and check the length. If you can't get it up high enough without going past the minimum-insertion mark, you should buy a new, longer seatpost. (You'll need to get one of the same diameter...bring the old one into the shop for reference.)

If the binder bolt was hard to turn, take it apart and put some oil or grease on the threads, then re-assemble it...this will let you get it tighter, with less risk of stripping the threads.

Angle
The angle of the saddle should be pretty close to horizontal. Some men prefer the front to be slightly higher than the rear; some women prefer the front slightly lower than the rear, but extreme angles should be avoided.

If the saddle is nosed up too far, it is likely to increase pressure on the soft tissues, and cause all sorts of problems.

If the saddle is tilted down in front, the rider will tend to slide forward onto the narrower part of the saddle. Women who are riding on saddles that were designed for men frequently tilt their saddles down. This will relieve some of the discomfort from the saddle itself, but creates new problems: The downward slope of the saddle causes the rider to tend to slide forward, and this can only be counteracted by pressure on the hands. Thus, poorly-angled saddles often are the cause of wrist, shoulder and neck problems, due to carrying too much of the rider's weight on the hands.

The angle and the front-back position are both adjusted by the clamp on the seatpost.

Front-back position
Saddles are also adjustable back and forth. Ideally, this adjustment should be made to set the saddle at the correct distance behind the bottom bracket, so that you are pedaling at an efficient angle. The conventional wisdom is that, when the pedal cranks are horizontal, your kneecap should be directly above the pedal spindle. Front-back position also will vary somewhat depending on your fitness and pedaling style. See Keith Bontrager's article on this topic.

It is generally considered a Bad Idea to tinker with saddle position to adjust the reach to the handlebars; it is better to adjust this by replacing the handlebar stem with one with a different reach, or by buying a bicycle with a different length top tube.

The angle and the front-back position are both adjusted by the clamp on the seatpost.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/saddles.html

alihisgreat

Raffles wrote:

Im getting sore hands because I think Im putting too much weight on them at the hoods. I looked into the 109% of inseam length for setting my saddle height, where you measure from the pedal axle to top of saddle. My inseam is 30 inches or 76.2 cm, when I multiply this by 109% it gets me 83cm. I set the tape at the axle and adjusted the saddle until its top was 83cm higher. it looked very low indeed to me on my 54cm frame so I raised it to 85cm. At this height the bike felt comfortable and a lot of weight was removed from my hands when on the hoods, but my right knee feels a wee bit sore after a 40 mile ride.

Is the 109% method any use, as there is a wealth of suggestions online saying the best way to do it. If I sit on my bike and put my heel on the pedal so as my leg is almost fully extended and use this to set height, then I get real discomfort and pain in the muscles below my right thumb, strangely enough my left hand is just fine.

Help...............Im confused

You can most likely move either side of that and still be in the bio-mechanically 'safe' range of leg extension.

Basically its about what is comfortable and works for you, and the interaction between saddle height, cleat position, saddle fore/aft etc. is also important.

Eg When I had my bike fit done they used the Trek system and plugged some numbers in to get a theoretical saddle height, but I ended up going 2cm higher to give me more aggressive 28degrees leg extension as this gave me better knee positioning.

slunker

I reckon it's all personal TBH, like saddles or shoes. Look at the pro peleton and there are guys who look like thier legs are locked out at the bottom of the stroke and otheres have a fair bend at the knee in the bottom stroke.

My mate who I cycle with is the same height as me and fairly similar body proportions and he has his saddle much higher than me, tried his settings and didn't like it one bit and vice versa.

Trial and error is the only way IMO.

styxd

Exactly. There are many different factors besides leg length and how tall you are that affect saddle height. What about cleat position and pedalling technique?