Team Doctor Idea

rick_chasey

With all this Ferrari stuff flying about (how this guy is still allowed to be a doctor is beyond me), I've been thinking.


Why don't the UCI ban all doctors from all teams apart from a) emergencies (to be investigated at a later date) and b) UCI specific doctors.


The UCI could provide a pool of team doctors that all the teams as part of their official licence pay for. Then, if a rider needs a doctor, they visit one of the neutral regulated UCI doctors.

Now, for sure, it'd be difficult to have doctors all over Europe, but riders don't need doctors on their door step. They need them if there is a problem. I go to the doctor probably once or twice a year.

ilovebigwig

I really do not understand the constant need/importance for a Doctor in professional cycling when compared to other sports. I know the extreme endurance changes things, but it has always seemed odd (indicative of the problems with PEDs) to me.

Completely agree with the Doctor pool idea, independently regulated (perhaps by some other Doctors rather than the sponsors).

LeicesterLad

I thought coaches dished out training plans, not Doctors. According to Pippo i'm wrong.

greasedscotsman

Won't the teams just employ them as soigneurs or technical advisors instead?

rick_chasey

greasedscotsman wrote:

Won't the teams just employ them as soigneurs or technical advisors instead?

Probably, but it's more difficult to get hold of drugs if you don't have a medical qualification.

That's why people like Ferrari and Fuentes are so problematic.

greasedscotsman

Rick Chasey wrote:

greasedscotsman wrote:

Won't the teams just employ them as soigneurs or technical advisors instead?

Probably, but it's more difficult to get hold of drugs if you don't have a medical qualification.

That's why people like Ferrari and Fuentes are so problematic.

Fair point, but then guys like Ferrari and Fuentes aren't directly employed by the teams.

alihisgreat

ilovebigwig wrote:

I really do not understand the constant need/importance for a Doctor in professional cycling when compared to other sports. I know the extreme endurance changes things, but it has always seemed odd (indicative of the problems with PEDs) to me.

Completely agree with the Doctor pool idea, independently regulated (perhaps by some other Doctors rather than the sponsors).

Compared to other sports?

All sports have doctors involved. There just isn't as much focus on them in the media as other sports are cleaner.

rick_chasey

greasedscotsman wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

greasedscotsman wrote:

Won't the teams just employ them as soigneurs or technical advisors instead?

Probably, but it's more difficult to get hold of drugs if you don't have a medical qualification.

That's why people like Ferrari and Fuentes are so problematic.

Fair point, but then guys like Ferrari and Fuentes aren't directly employed by the teams.

No for sure, but a rider on a team signed up to the UCI wouldn't be allowed to visit them AT ALL, only UCI doctors.

Then, the UCI doctors could internally report and share with the anti-doping people what stuff they're prescribing people and what they're not, and any other information that would be relevant.

greasedscotsman

Rick Chasey wrote:

No for sure, but a rider on a team signed up to the UCI wouldn't be allowed to visit them AT ALL, only UCI doctors.

Then, the UCI doctors could internally report and share with the anti-doping people what stuff they're prescribing people and what they're not, and any other information that would be relevant.

I'm not sure how your going to stop a rider seeing a doctor during something like the TdF. You can't watch them all the time. If they want to cheat, in whatever way they decide to, visiting a doctor isn't really going to be a worry, is it?

ilovebigwig

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

ilovebigwig wrote:

I really do not understand the constant need/importance for a Doctor in professional cycling when compared to other sports. I know the extreme endurance changes things, but it has always seemed odd (indicative of the problems with PEDs) to me.

Completely agree with the Doctor pool idea, independently regulated (perhaps by some other Doctors rather than the sponsors).

Compared to other sports?

All sports have doctors involved. There just isn't as much focus on them in the media as other sports are cleaner.

Key word in my point was "constant", and I mean in relation to involvement with the athletes. Obviously all teams/squads in all sports will have at least one Doctor on board, but no constant interaction. That is more the job of the trainers/coaches/physios/nutritionists etc.

ilovebigwig

greasedscotsman wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

No for sure, but a rider on a team signed up to the UCI wouldn't be allowed to visit them AT ALL, only UCI doctors.

Then, the UCI doctors could internally report and share with the anti-doping people what stuff they're prescribing people and what they're not, and any other information that would be relevant.

I'm not sure how your going to stop a rider seeing a doctor during something like the TdF. You can't watch them all the time. If they want to cheat, in whatever way they decide to, visiting a doctor isn't really going to be a worry, is it?

Presumably most "high street" Doctors don't have sophisticated doping plans at their finger tips? Mine has never recommended me anything beyond headache pills and the need for more fruit and veg.

mididoctors

might actually make the situation worse if everything is off the books... it is a pretty absurd sport

RichN95.

Riders should be allowed to choose what doctor they see for the legitimate medical needs. Health is paramount and should not be compromised.
However, doping doctors should be declared personna non grata and working with them should carry a ban (as with Ferrari in Italy). That still leaves plenty of choice of honest docs. Forcing a rider to use a particular doctor would seem to be against some sort of human rights.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Forcing a rider to use a particular doctor would seem to be against some sort of human rights.

Really? NHS do it to me whenever I need to see one.

mididoctors

make the doctors more responsible for any positives on the team..ie they must monitor the riders and catch/flag users ahead of time?

mididoctors

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Forcing a rider to use a particular doctor would seem to be against some sort of human rights.

Really? NHS do it to me whenever I need to see one.

actually you can ask for another doctor or not bother going at all if you wish......

ddraver

!!!!Want to make it clear that I'm playing devils advocate here!!!!

Who Better? essentially what you are suggesting is that the athletes use a less qualified person to do their jobs. They are finely tuned specimens who becasue of the immense trainign loads they put themselvs under are much more succeseptible to colds, stomach upsets etc. A doctor knows the available treatments better than any other health professional and can fine tune the balance specifically to that athlete- Otherwise they'd only be able to chug down a lemsip or an immodium.

Clearly someont trained in medical science knows the most about smelly fanies..derm....I mean nutition, training, recovery and training. Much more so than experts who have focussed on that one area (sarcasm aside however, there is some truth theat they have a better holisitc view than 4 or 5 specialists)

greasedscotsman

ilovebigwig wrote:

Presumably most "high street" Doctors don't have sophisticated doping plans at their finger tips? Mine has never recommended me anything beyond headache pills and the need for more fruit and veg.

But they won't be going to see "high street" doctors will they? I'm not sure by saying you can't see anyone but a UCI approved doctor will stop someone seeing a Ferrari or Fuentes. Especially if you assume the reason for seeing them is to cheat.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Forcing a rider to use a particular doctor would seem to be against some sort of human rights.

Really? NHS do it to me whenever I need to see one.

And if you don't like that one, you can go and find a different one. With you scheme cyclists would be lumbered with the same one regardless. And what about specialists? How would that work?

TheBigBean

Surely the biggest problem with this idea is the implementation. Ferrari is already banned from working with cyclists, but he still works with them doesn't he? So whilst it may be a good idea to remove as many of the team doctors as possible, I don't think it will prevent them from carrying on their work.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Forcing a rider to use a particular doctor would seem to be against some sort of human rights.

Really? NHS do it to me whenever I need to see one.

And if you don't like that one, you can go and find a different one. With you scheme cyclists would be lumbered with the same one regardless. And what about specialists? How would that work?

If you don't like one doctor see another in the pool.

Re specialists - you'd need the UCI to give you the OK to use said specialist. Perhaps require the specialist to report exactly what they've done to someone who can understand.

----

It just struck me as that the doctors are big enablers in the whole doping process. Now sure, people will try and dope anyway, but the risks are much much greater.

timoid.

Don't agree with OP for the following reasons:

Doctors can also be policemen. On a team with a stated clean goal like Garmin, a doctor will be able to monitor/flag doping riders.

And I don't think any ban on using doctors during the TdF would pass a ECHR test.

Do you expect riders to queue for doctors services after a stage? How would that work? Take a ticket and sit down in some Mecical tent reading old Marie-Claire magazines?

DNQ

Rick Chasey wrote:

The UCI could provide a pool of team doctors that all the teams as part of their official licence pay for. Then, if a rider needs a doctor, they visit one of the neutral regulated UCI doctors.

They'd be able to share the riders medical/performance information with everyone else, and save L'Equipe the bother.

brettjmcc

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

Compared to other sports?

All sports have doctors involved. There just isn't as much focus on them in the media as other sports are cleaner.

or another view is that other sports aren't as focussed on catching as cycling, something Cav came out and said as much in the past few days.

There has been a lot of commentary recently how many footballers use painkillers and active recovery....

RichN95.

Maybe all Formula 1 cars should be only tended to by a couple of blokes Bernie Ecclestone found at his local Kwik Fit.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Maybe all Formula 1 cars should be only tended to by a couple of blokes Bernie Ecclestone found at his local Kwik Fit.

Are we equating riders to F1 cars?...

You'd hope there's a lot less engineering involved in riders.


Like I said, I was just trying to think of a way round the enabling issue.

I want doping to be risky, both for the riders' health and for getting caught. I see that as a deterrent.

mr_poll

Having a pool of UCI doctors over-complicates things and also as some posters have stated doesn't stop the Doctors being employed in another capacity/directly.

Why not just enforce the existing ban harder and run with assumed guilt (like missing tests), people who are banned need to be persona non grata for the length of their ban.

e.g. Here is a list of banned people from our sport, including Doctors. If you (that's riders or team members) use or associate with them in anyway then it will be presumed that you are doing so for nefarious reasons and you will also be banned.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Maybe all Formula 1 cars should be only tended to by a couple of blokes Bernie Ecclestone found at his local Kwik Fit.

Are we equating riders to F1 cars?...

You'd hope there's a lot less engineering involved in riders.

I was mostly being silly, but it was prompted by your comment that you only need a doctor twice a year, which is like comparing a family car to a motorsport car.

Doctors do need to be seen as human engineers though. Why pay a million a year for a rider and then not employ someone to check that the engine is working properly.

ilovebigwig

brettjmcc wrote:

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

Compared to other sports?

All sports have doctors involved. There just isn't as much focus on them in the media as other sports are cleaner.

or another view is that other sports aren't as focussed on catching as cycling, something Cav came out and said as much in the past few days.

There has been a lot of commentary recently how many footballers use painkillers and active recovery....

I think cycling, given the publicity the doping attracts, should do everything it can to keep trying to stamp it out. Other sports are behind and perhaps care less, but that is their issue to manage.

Pross

You need team doctors to constantly monitor a rider's health - this is a sport that takes an extreme effort from the human body and someone needs to be there to try to ensure riders bodies are up to the task. I know most high profile early deaths in riders are linked to drug abuse but there must be others that have been saved (albeit with their career ended) as a result of natural defects the team doctor has picked up?

Surely the simplest solution would be for doctors involved in doping athletes to be struck off? I assume that medical councils would see it as an abuse of the ethics of the profession even if it isn't strictly illegal. How many doctors would risk their livelihood to help run a cycling club doping regime?

iainf72

If you don't get a doctor to help with your prep, you'll get a dodgy old Italian soigneur who's probably very competent with a needle.

The problem with guys like Ferrari, Cecchini or Fuentes is they operate outside of a team structure providing "consultancy" As we've seen with Pippo, all the regulating and banning in the world isn't going to stop that happening, Remember the Freiburg doctors - They effectively said they just tried to make sure the doping was done safely as the riders were going to do it anyway. (aside from the 2 on the team with superior moral fortitude / better private help)

I'd doubt someone like Ferrari gets anywhere near the ghetto side of what he advises.