Every Team Should...

LeicesterLad

Take a GC contender to the Tour.

So far I have no interest in Lotto or Argos-Shimano. Whats the point in dragging a team through the tour if all you care about is a few flat bits?

Discuss.

ddraver

Teams interested in the flat bits make the tour interesting for the 22 other days that the GC is nt decided on...

From last year, Hushovd, EBH, Cav, Gilbert, even Evans on a few bits!

If every team had Iain as DS we'd just see 3 weeks of 180 riders riding gently around france with 15 mins entertainment at the top of the elected MTF.

iainf72

LeicesterLad wrote:

Take a GC contender to the Tour.

So far I have no interest in Lotto or Argos-Shimano. Whats the point in dragging a team through the tour if all you care about is a few flat bits?

Discuss.

Jurgen Van Den Broeck?

Not top tier but he's top 10'd in more than one GT.

iainf72

ddraver wrote:

If every team had Iain as DS we'd just see 3 weeks of 180 riders riding gently around france with 15 mins entertainment at the top of the elected MTF.

I think you'll find that's what we have now.

LeicesterLad

iainf72 wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

Take a GC contender to the Tour.

So far I have no interest in Lotto or Argos-Shimano. Whats the point in dragging a team through the tour if all you care about is a few flat bits?

Discuss.

Jurgen Van Den Broeck?

Not top tier but he's top 10'd in more than one GT.

Yeah I get that the teams may have people who can ride for the GC, I was more picking at the teams picking Sprinters as team leaders. Yeah there isn't many mountainous stages, but theres plenty of mid mountains that won't end in a bunch sprint. Sagan already has the green jersey so there's teams riding a three week tour to support a leader on 7 or so flat bits for the sake of a couple of stage wins?

Also i'm going at this purely from a sporting point not from whether it pleases sponsors etc.

Surely every team in the top flight should have one or more proper contenders for a tour GC? Otherwise they end up like Rabobank?

estampida

its no different to mark chavendish holding onto a car all day then peddling a little faster than every 1 else for 30 secs, but hey where is the glory...... all the fawning idiots that support him

or a little skinny guy only being use on the mountain stages (with a little help from a doctor or 2)..... wheres the glory......... oh thats right

then when the auto -bio comes out it says on the back (so many stage wins blah blah.....)

maybe the bike sponsor wants all the attention on the tt (there will be market reasons for such ideas)

they want to keep out of the high places on the tour as they dont need the drug tests, but they can hide a pro or two in the ranks till he is clear and can go to a bigger team (builds up the muscle then goes clean for the win at next tour....)

hundreds of reasons mostly financial

iainf72

How many real GC guys are there? 6? 7? 22 teams. I'm not good at numbers but.....

LeicesterLad

iainf72 wrote:

How many real GC guys are there? 6? 7? 22 teams. I'm not good at numbers but.....

Yeah I suppose that's not far off, but with a more dedicated team some of these second tier riders could have a decent shot at a podium if they were not being sidestepped for the sprinters, especially this year. Someone like Van Den Broeck could have a decent shot at third.

blazing_saddles

If you don't consider Jurgen van Den Broeck a contender, then that leaves about 18 teams in the same category.
He was 4th in the 2010 Tour and has top 10 finishes in both the Giro and Vuelta.
In the recent Dauphine, he was the only rider to stay with Wiggins and Evans, who also turned out a very decent ITT.
He is Lotto's designated team leader and looks to be arriving at the race, ready to peak.

Anyhow, on the general principle of having a GC rider for GTs' I agree, were it possible.
However, the criticism is more apt in the case of the Giro or Vuelta.
Take Rabobank, since they were mentioned. Potentially, they enter the Tour with three contenders, yet to the Giro, they sent a 22YO leader and an inconsistent sprinter who was crocked on the first road stage.

In an ideal world, there would be twenty (or 40+ for all 3) genuine GT riders spread around the PT teams.
There aren't, so a lot of teams have to target stage wins. (this is the normal Giro PR spin)
Hence the sprinters and their accompanying entourage.

rick_chasey

Blazing Saddles wrote:

If you don't consider Jurgen van Den Broeck a contender, then that leaves about 18 teams in the same category.
He was 4th in the 2010 Tour and has top 10 finishes in both the Giro and Vuelta.
In the recent Dauphine, he was the only rider to stay with Wiggins and Evans, who also turned out a very decent ITT.
He is Lotto's designated team leader and looks to be arriving at the race, ready to peak.

.

Correct.

He's also up for throwing an attack in, and he's getting to the age where he should be getting quicker.

If he keeps it upright.

ddraver

iainf72 wrote:

ddraver wrote:

If every team had Iain as DS we'd just see 3 weeks of 180 riders riding gently around france with 15 mins entertainment at the top of the elected MTF.

I think you'll find that's what we have now.

*Yawn Smiley*

liquor box

LeicesterLad wrote:

Take a GC contender to the Tour.

So far I have no interest in Lotto or Argos-Shimano. Whats the point in dragging a team through the tour if all you care about is a few flat bits?

Discuss.

What about teams that take a few people they think can win in different conditions? I like seeing genuine GC contenders but some teams just dont have the team to do that.

GreenEDGE is only new and have said all along they dont have a GC contender, but they do have a good shot at some stage wins between Goss, Gerrans and Albisini

Maybe the lack of GC contenders is due to some teams stacking their lineup with more than one GC capable cyclist to support its leader.SKY have about 3-4 genuine GC rivals if given a chance in another team, granted they may not be as good as Wiggins, but would possibly give him a ruin if they also had a team behind them.

andyp

GC riders are expensive and not all teams can afford one, especially now teams like BMC, Quick-Step, Sky and Radioshack have huge budgets that allow them to take some of the up and coming GC contenders and turn them into luxury domestiques for more established riders.

Supporting a GC rider is also a high risk tactic as it only takes a crash or an illness to mean they miss out on their, and the sponsor's, main objective and all that money you've invested in them has gone with little return.

inseine

Estampida, there are lots of fawning idiots on here, whereas you're just an idiot.

nweststeyn

estampida wrote:

its no different to mark chavendish holding onto a car all day then peddling a little faster than every 1 else for 30 secs, but hey where is the glory...... all the fawning idiots that support him

or a little skinny guy only being use on the mountain stages (with a little help from a doctor or 2)..... wheres the glory......... oh thats right

then when the auto -bio comes out it says on the back (so many stage wins blah blah.....)

maybe the bike sponsor wants all the attention on the tt (there will be market reasons for such ideas)

they want to keep out of the high places on the tour as they dont need the drug tests, but they can hide a pro or two in the ranks till he is clear and can go to a bigger team (builds up the muscle then goes clean for the win at next tour....)

hundreds of reasons mostly financial

ocdupalais

liquor box wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

Take a GC contender to the Tour.

So far I have no interest in Lotto or Argos-Shimano. Whats the point in dragging a team through the tour if all you care about is a few flat bits?

Discuss.

What about teams that take a few people they think can win in different conditions? I like seeing genuine GC contenders but some teams just dont have the team to do that.

ddraver wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

ddraver wrote:

If every team had Iain as DS we'd just see 3 weeks of 180 riders riding gently around france with 15 mins entertainment at the top of the elected MTF.

I think you'll find that's what we have now.

*Yawn Smiley*

I'm hoping that people get to value the prelude stages more - and all the little side-shows, intrigues and mishaps along the way (or, in the case of Wiggins last year, a hope-dashing crash). I think they generally have a far higher regard for the whole circus element to cycling on "the Continent" (perhaps this will shift in UK as more people cycle/race/spectate...).
If you can concede that you actually like cycling to start with (always a plus), but find the less crucial (on paper) stages dull, then I'd say sit and watch a whole day's stage unfold - ideally in the presence of a knowledgable fan and some beer (other mood-enhancers are available). If you are able to do this as much as possible throughout an entire GT, I guarantee your appreciation of the whole shebang will be embiggened*.
The more we appreciate it as a real-time soap opera rather than just what's going on at the pointy end, the better. Football's alright, but everyone's attention is pretty much solely fixed on following the white blob around. But enough of Rooney, already... occasionally, there's some off-the-ball interest (like that photo of Vinny Jones squeezing Gazza's balls).
But cycling is unique - especially the GT's - and interest in what's happening on TV** is usually actually limited by the number (and skill) of the camerafolk and the imagination of the director. There's always something going on (except, maybe, in the Vuelta sometimes...).



* This also requires that you are able to sit and listen to the commentators for the duration without punching the screen
** I resent Sky's connection with the best British cycling team ever, but, man, do I love pause-and-rewind TV!

rebs

Was anyone mentioning this type of thing when HTC were stomping over everyone on any stage that was partially flat?

We don't that that type of team at the moment. I kind of miss that.

I guess this is more down to all the better sprinters are now in more financially sound teams. Teams that also have eyes on GC's in GT's. Greenedge seem close to this but they have had more sucess with Garrins instead of their 'train'.

jonny limelight

nweststeyn wrote:

estampida wrote:

its no different to mark chavendish holding onto a car all day then peddling a little faster than every 1 else for 30 secs, but hey where is the glory...... all the fawning idiots that support him

or a little skinny guy only being use on the mountain stages (with a little help from a doctor or 2)..... wheres the glory......... oh thats right

then when the auto -bio comes out it says on the back (so many stage wins blah blah.....)

maybe the bike sponsor wants all the attention on the tt (there will be market reasons for such ideas)

they want to keep out of the high places on the tour as they dont need the drug tests, but they can hide a pro or two in the ranks till he is clear and can go to a bigger team (builds up the muscle then goes clean for the win at next tour....)

hundreds of reasons mostly financial

it seems anyone with a different view from consensus is regarded as a troll. it would be better NOT TO FEED THE SHEEP

nweststeyn

I think that if your differing view is that all sprinters are cheats and all climbers are dopers and post something as negative as estampida did it's probably not worth visiting a cycling-based forum at all.

jonny limelight

nweststeyn wrote:

I think that if your differing view is that all sprinters are cheats and all climbers are dopers and post something as negative as estampida did it's probably not worth visiting a cycling-based forum at all.

you are quite right regarding his complete negativity but it is still his right not to follow the crowd.

a "troll" seems to become a by word for anyone who doesn't believe in the hype or cult of cav.

cycling5280

LeicesterLad wrote:

Take a GC contender to the Tour.

So far I have no interest in Lotto or Argos-Shimano. Whats the point in dragging a team through the tour if all you care about is a few flat bits?

Discuss.

Winning two sprint stages is better than taking 7th in the GC both from a sporting level and sponsorship level.

ocdupalais

jonny limelight wrote:

jonny limelight wrote:

nweststeyn wrote:

I think that if your differing view is that all sprinters are cheats and all climbers are dopers and post something as negative as estampida did it's probably not worth visiting a cycling-based forum at all.

you are quite right regarding his complete negativity but it is still his right not to follow the crowd.

a "troll" seems to become a by word for anyone who doesn't believe in the hype or cult of cav.

it seems anyone with a different view from consensus is regarded as a troll. it would be better NOT TO FEED THE SHEEP

estampida's a troll - pure and simple.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

And as for "sheep", their diet round here is a healthy dose of unsweetened cynicism, heavily salted bile and the occasional liberal sprinkling of love.

Now can we get back to being fans of the best sport in the World, please?

nweststeyn

I don't like cycling anymore. This forum ruined it. I'm off to mumsnet.

roypsb

inseine wrote:

Estampida, there are lots of fawning idiots on here, whereas you're just an idiot.

Well said Sir! +1

No_Ta_Doctor

The most boring part of any GT is the mediocre GC riders trying to make a top ten placing. I'd rather they put their efforts into winning a stage or two than trundling around seeing if they can put 30 seconds into the rider in 11th. Who cares? Why waste a decent rider and his domestiques on something so tediously inconsequential?