can you ride anything on anything?

bluechair84

And more to the point, would you want to?

Firstly, I've taken the title from a post in another thread - and I mean it in no way to be flaming or condescending to the original poster of the comment but it got me thinking and I'd like to see the debate on the matter

I was originally thinking that DH bikes are rather too much for your everyday rider to handle on proper DH courses, whilst they can take away much of the enjoyment of simpler tracks. To get the most out of them, you really need a descent set of skills. I suppose the same could be said for XC race machines - I think resilience to pain is the primary requirement. I'd rather do both types of riding on something I'm more familiar with than be thrown in at the deepend.
I think the sentiment really means, you should be able to enjoy riding anything anywhere because it's not about what you own but the joy you get from riding. But if it's about fun and you have an option of what to ride, then actually you might not get the most fun out of the bike most suited to that terrain (ie, a DH bike in the hands of the unskilled might scare the crap out of someone on a DH course) because what you ride has to be within your comfort/skills zone. Of course, if you don't have the choice, then terrain mustn't be limiting to where you ride, only skill.

Go...

cooldad

At the extremes I would agree. For mountain biking (everything in the middle) yes and yes.
(Except for silly bikes like SS, I mean why would you?),

YeehaaMcgee

I'd disagree about needing a certain skillset to ride a DH bike.
However, I would say that a tiny minority of UK tracks require such a bike - but in the Alps (where this thread stemmed from), you have plenty of proper DH tracks to rip up.

Take an unsuitable bike to a proper Alpine DH track, and you're relying heavily on your skills to get you down in one piece.
It's not so much that the DH bike enables anyone to ride such terrain, but if you're relatively unskilled then you've got a far greater chance of making it down unscathed. Especially with speeds and steepness in the Alps being something of a culture shock to someone who's only ever ridden down a sloping field before.
Of course, there's also the sticky issue of "should an unskilled rider be discouraged from attempting such riding". I'd have to say yes, frankly.
I know a bit of an old geezer, who's "ok" on XC trails, a bit wobbly. But some of his much younger, DH racing friends have badgered him into trying the Passportes Du soleil - and I'm seriously concerned he's going to injure himself quite badly.

I'm a huge advocate of "one bike for everything", and have my bike set up as an all-rounder, with sacrifices to certain aspects in order to bolster others. These sacrifices/optimisations are decisions I've made with several years of experience, and knowing what I enjoy riding, and also knowing where I'd be willing to "make do".
I'm confident that I could ride it down DH tracks, pretty much anywhere, because I'm also sure of my own skills.
However, I'm also sure, that, given enough spare cash, I'd still be taking a big DH rig to the big mountains, to make the most of them.

ilovedirt

You can ride anything on anything really, but it is about what is more comfortable and suited to the terrain, and how fast you want to ride it. I'm in Morzine as we speak, and I'm glad I have a full on downhill bike, but there's a lot of people out here riding much smaller trail bikes. One of the girls out with us is on an orange five, and she's absolutely smoking some of our guys on bigger bikes (one of them on a 2010 glory). It is down to your skills really. I could ride my slayer down here if i wanted to, but I would be slower, and I don't think I'd have as much fun. I'm comfortable enough on a proper downhill rig that I can make the most of it.

YeehaaMcgee

ilovedirt wrote:

One of the girls out with us is on an orange five, and she's absolutely smoking some of our guys on bigger bikes (one of them on a 2010 glory).

There's AWLAYS one of these stories :roll:
All that means is that she's a far better rider. It doesn't tell you anything about bikes, or suitability.

miss notax

I firmly believe that there are lots of people who can ride anything on anything - but regrettably i'm not one of them :? I like having different bikes for different jobs (but all bouncy and comfortable).

I am full of admiratation for the guys that you see blasting up trails on a singlespeed or flying down DH trails on a hardtail, but I wouldn't want to do it personally! I think generally i'm a bit old and i'm quite happy to rely on bike design to take the edge off stuff

ilovedirt

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

ilovedirt wrote:

One of the girls out with us is on an orange five, and she's absolutely smoking some of our guys on bigger bikes (one of them on a 2010 glory).

There's AWLAYS one of these stories :roll:
All that means is that she's a far better rider. It doesn't tell you anything about bikes, or suitability.

Yeah she is, and yeah it does. Goes to show that you can ride a smaller bike down a downhill trail. Granted she'd probably be faster on a bigger bike, but a bigger bike doesn't necessarily make you fast.

bluechair84

cooldad wrote:

At the extremes I would agree. For mountain biking (everything in the middle) yes and yes.
(Except for silly bikes like SS, I mean why would you?),

I follow this sentiment entirely, mountain biking is mountain biking on any bike, but full DH rigs and XC race machines are too specific for them to be considered enjoyable outside of their remit to the unseasoned. I think there are certain (if maybe minor) minimum standards you need to get enjoyment from them - for instance drop offs. If your slowing down to avoid them on a DH bike, you have to get back up to speed again. You have to be confident enough to hit the smaller features of a track otherwise you're making much more effort for yourself.

YeehaaMcgee

Getting back up to speed is not a problem in the Alps.

fyldesmurf

i think i disagree with your statement about dh bikes, i reckon they can be ridden by everyone and are massive skill compensaters, sure if you want to ride at their limit you have to have a certain set of skills, but i've seen many riders improve exponentially by just hopping on an old Glory or Patriot.

Whilst it may well be possible to ride anything on anything, and some people choose to, for the average rider i just don't think it will be as enjoyable as riding a bike suited to the terrain

Woody80

Interesting question, I think the vast majority of terrain can be ridden on most bikes but as people have said its about how much you'd get back. Both in terms of speed and enjoyment. When I did the Dyfi Enduro I got passed on climbs by Lycra cladded (strange) single speed, legs like pistons ex roadies(?) but going down I absolutely battered past the same people (or certainly their type.....) walking the slatey chutes. I had a big grin and they bimbled down on foot. I hated the climbs and relished the descents and they seeming loved the climbs and the descents were a means to a climb.


Technically you'd ride anything on anything but it's about rewards. We're all wired slightly differently, mentally as well as skills so different kit works for different people. Multiple bikes is a good option (if affordable) to reap the best adrenaline rush from the right ride IMO.

paul.skibum

As the originator of the "you can ride anything on anything" comment I'd like to defend my position (and I am in no way offended by BlueChairs exception to my view).

I have ridden properly for 9 years. My first year riding (skills were low, fitness OK) I wrecked my hardtail and my back bouncing off a tree and went on my first trip to Morzine. I have since ridden a fair amount, done an OTC training course and an instructor training course in Canada, worked for a season in Les Gets as a guide and ridden in the Alps and BC.

I have ridden in the Alps on a rental Scott (YZ1 full suss v brake crap-o-matic), a Kona Coiler, Cove Handjob HT, Orange Patriot (6inch either end, triple crank AM ish set up) and my Santa Cruz Heckler (2001 4inch travel). I have ridden in a BC bike park on a Norco Shore, Norco A Line and my Heckler.

I can honestly say there is little in the way of riding I have ever done on one bike or other that I wouldnt attempt on one of the others. The Scott I first had (considering it was hired in Morzine) was out of its depths at my then skill level on the DH runs but more because I cooked the brakes. A better rider would have probably done better.

I have ridden with many people far in excess of my skills - my mate, ex DH racer, contemporary of Steve Peat, rode in the Alps with us on a 1999 Spesh DH with crap manitou triple crowns, 4 inch travel, no rear brake and suspension that barely worked but I never saw him moving his skill level was so much higher than mine. Same guy in Wales ripped up and down faster than I could dream.

I have been left behind on BC bike park runs by girls and boys on bigger bikes all with greater skill and/or balls than I, I have been destroyed by a mate wheelie-ing his bike up the road to the top of the Chavannes in Les Gets whiel I could barely keep up pedalling. He could have out ridden me off road on his road bike to be honest.

I have ridden the same trail (lets say the French Cup course in Linderet in the PdS) on my Heckler, my Patriot and my Handjob - very different bikes, same track. My Patriot handled everything on the track better for sure but all three bikes got me down, no falls, no breakages and no major issues - time wise sure the hardtail was of the pace but as I say we all got down.

I am no god on a bike, I get by but there are better people within a stones throw of where I am typing but I still say if I had only one bike I'd do whatever I wanted to on it - I may modify what I want to do based on what would be fun but as I say if you can ride GR5 on a hardtail the Alps are open to anyone with a half decent bike.

paul.skibum

Sorry - that dragged on longer than I intended! I blame beer.

bluechair84

paul.skibum wrote:

I have ridden properly for 9 years. My first year riding (skills were low, fitness OK) I wrecked my hardtail and my back bouncing off a tree and went on my first trip to Morzine. I have since ridden a fair amount, done an OTC training course and an instructor training course in Canada, worked for a season in Les Gets as a guide and ridden in the Alps and BC.

Nice 8)
An example of my reasoning is doubles, drops and step-downs. If you can't clear them, then you are loosing out on massive speed boasts, having to make up this speed else where. Maybe it's less applicable to the Alps but I certainly don't know of many DH courses in Britain you can freewheel down - especially if you aren't skilled enough to pump the doubles et al. Maybe the exception is like Cooldad says, the extremes of bikes on the extremes of trails. sure you can enjoy a 200mm+ DH rig on a descending trail, but as a beginner, not on a proper DH course which if you wanted to attempt, you'd be better of on a bike that's more well-rounded.
But I see your points, a reasonable rider can enjoy any terrain on any bike.

YeehaaMcgee

I sense a crudcatcher experiment coming on.
Get two entirely inexperienced people. give one a trail bike, the other a DH bike.
Send them down the Pleney (let's be kind here), then have them swap bikes, and repeat. See which bike they prefer.
If it's a tie, let them fight to the death to sort it out.

bluechair84

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

If it's a tie, let them fight to the death to sort it out.

A jousting competition on the bike they were given so we can settle it once and for all

rockmonkeysc

There are bikes which can do a bit of everything. I have got a On One 456SS & Giant Reign X which are both more than capable of DH & XC but not the best bike for either if your riding against a stop watch but a heap of fun for both riding styles.
A DH bike will make most riders faster down a hill but they aren't the easiest bikes to ride, they're heavy, take effort to turn & have limited steering & don't pedal as well as a shorter travel bike but they just plough through stuff which will break AM or XC bikes and are much more stable.
I learn't to ride DH on a hardtail which I would recommend to anyone, it teaches you to pick your lines well and make sure you clear gaps properly and it's fun!
A good rider on a smaller bike will always be faster than an average rider on a DH bike. I have been to a few DH races which have been won by riders on shorter travel bikes just because they were very good riders.

welshkev

the thing is that before there was a trail centre at cwmcarn me and my mates used to ride there and the trails were quite similar as to they are now just not so smoothed out and flowy. i used to ride there on fully rigids with v-brakes and hammer it.

is it now more comfortable and safer on my full sus with 140mm travel & disc brakes with 180mm rotors and all types of pads - hell yeah! but was i riding it before and loving it? yes

not sure if this is relevant to anything posted before but i've had a few glasses of wine so sod it

bluechair84

I think debates with no obvious answer can only be resolved with alcohol! I haven't ridden a nails bike since I was a kid, but my girl has an unused, mint condition but decades old Giant Boulder I might have to get out on
We all started on nails bikes and stayed with the sport, so there's plenty of merit in the notion ride anything. It's the anywhere bit!

Do roadies have these kind of philosophical problems? Or does it end at 'wax, or shave'?

Woody80

bluechair84 wrote:

Do roadies have these kind of philosophical problems? Or does it end at 'wax, or shave'?

Probably this!

YeehaaMcgee

Roadies have exactly the same debate:
"I'm going to be riding a part of Le Tour route, which takes me through Les Gets, and I've heard that it's well known for some sort of lazy down hill cycling.
Will my cervelo* be fine for this, or should I hire a mountain bike of some sort?

*I don't even know what cervelo is or if it even exists, but it sounds like a road bike manufacturer. at least in my head.

beardwithabike

Me and my mates rode Kona Stinkys 2011. Nothing special but they did the job and went past far too many people with over specced kit. Oh and a shameless plug, here is our trip with is riding them!!

http://www.pinkbike.com/video/255548/

Leave a comment on the video LOVE Morzine!

paul.skibum

Nicely put together video (no music at work so cant comment on the match of track to action). My top tip would be to look further ahead when riding then you wont get stalled so often in corners.

However your video doesnt really address the topic of this thread. I would consider a Stinky on the DH/FR end of the scale and totally suited to riding the Plenney and Avalanche cup courses. To be honest you are edging into the over specced kit end of things for the Plenney (its a blue run after all).

Try the French Cup course in Linderet or the Swiss Cup up on Mossettes on the same bikes, maybe the old Les Gets DH on the other side of the valley (so sad they shut off the top of that) or the Red run in Chatel - they are PROPER DH tracks. Avalanche is OK but you can lap it over and over in a day without trouble some of the others I mention above leave you pumped.

ilovedirt

Lol, there are some awful riders in the alps on some very nice bikes (i'd consider myself to be average), saw some guys yesterday though on enduro 6/7" type things shredding harder than I had seen anyone ride all week.

Northwind

It all depends on what you take from your riding. Frinstance, I had a great time riding my rigid xc bike on innerleithen's black so I decided to take it down some of hte downhill trails and that was great too... But I think a lot of people would hate it as it was sloooooow and kinda bloody difficult. For the folks who do biking for the thrill of speed, well, there wasn't any.

Likewise I've got a dh bike but I don't use it much, but I've done a lot more downhill on my 6 inch bike- raced it at fort william, quite badly . It's not really the right tool for the job but it works, and I love it. You get very different experiences from the same trail doing it on different bikes.

These days, trail bikes are incredibly awesome- they still have their limits, but most riders will hit their own limits long before. I do! So then it just becomes what you like. And possibly what you need, riding is a package of skill and hardware after all. Not sure I'd want to do harder dh routes on my hemlock with my level of skill/nerve, and it comes a point once you've been riding hard trails for a long time in a day that you can just start to get beat up and a bigger bike can reduce that.

paul.skibum

Quite right Northwind. To be honest my confidence level and fear of pain means that to a greater or lesser extent the difference in downhill stuff I'd tackle between my hardtail, my heckler or a proper dh bike is not that different. I'll go faster ona dh bike on the same terrain but I am still unlikely to be tackling doubles and big drops simply because my brain stops me before I try.

Maybe my definition of ride anything on anything is limited to what my maximum difficulty level is - maybe this mans anything is less than the op's and therefore what he is considering riding on a hardtail I wouldnt consider on a DH?

max888

The first time I went to Morzine I rode my 100mm Cannondale F5 hardtail. The second time, a Cannondale RZ140 with Lefty :twisted: . From my experiences you can ride pretty much any trail on any bike. The only differance is the speed of descent and how many bricks you sh!t.

On a bike which is not suited to the terrain you go much slower with more walking and being clipped in is fricking dumb as the bike just can't go over the obstacles, especially on an XC bike as the BB height is low. The angles are also too steep for some of the runs. Meaning that you are pretty scared most of the time. On the same trails the RZ was much faster and easier to control due to the fact that the suspension could actually handle the terrain. More fun and not as painful.

The best guage of what type of bike is best is by looking at what the locals ride. Many of the kids were riding DJ, AM and FR bikes. Few had fully blown DH rigs. Nearly all of the DH bikes rolling around were ridden by tourists. It really is a matter of rider skill in the end. If you can pick the smoothest line with less sh!t in your way then you will be faster down the hill than a tourist on a 2 week old Santa Cruz V10 carbon.

Best is a 140-160mm AM bike mainly because you can ride it uphill to get to the secret trails! And you can use is in the UK, 'cos who really needs 210mm in Richmond Park. Yep I have seen a session crawling the trails...

max888

Northwind wrote:

These days, trail bikes are incredibly awesome- they still have their limits, but most riders will hit their own limits long before. I do! So then it just becomes what you like. And possibly what you need, riding is a package of skill and hardware after all.

This.

bluechair84

James May said something interesting once... He said something along the lines of 'you have more fun when at the raggedy edge, and fast sport cars are so competent that most people can never be on the edge. But put them in a heapashit were the limits are lower and whatch the smiles bloom'. So what ever bike puts you close to the limits is the most fun (if you like being at the limits). A rigid bike down a black sounds great to me
I imagine that lesser skilled riders will only really benefit on a DH rig when it's quite highly specced. Cheap DH bikes suffer from heavy components and need even more powerful brakes; arm pump, tugging the bike around technical features and loosing speed through landing to flat when they haven't cleared features can be exhausting (I had a horrible horrible day on a very basic rental Big Hit once for this reason). But I agree with what a few people have mentioned, that they are more forgiving of mistakes which can be godsend when things go fubar.

bluechair84

Max888 wrote:

Northwind wrote:

These days, trail bikes are incredibly awesome- they still have their limits, but most riders will hit their own limits long before. I do! So then it just becomes what you like. And possibly what you need, riding is a package of skill and hardware after all.

This.

+1

felix.london

I got the DH bug last year taking my Rockhopper down my local Alpine runs (first with 100mm fork then with 120mm). And lots & lots of fun was had for sure. I loved it! Like I say - I got the bug...big time

So far this season I've done three days up the road in Montgenevre on the Session and fun has suddenly been multiplied by about 100x ! I can go way faster and hitter bigger stuff than I ever could,can or will be able to on the 'hopper - but that's down to a lack of skills on my part. There's plenty of guys on that mountain that I'm sure if I gave them my 'hopper could hit way bigger stuff than I can on my Session. Then again - I'm still a complete noob - but making progress with each run which is an awesome feeling in itself 8)

So to answer the question "can you ride anything on anything?"...if you've got the skills, for sure you can

Have a look at this for proof of that...
http://thehairyrider.com/2012/06/19/danny-who/