Confident Descending

Peddle Up!

I know topics get reposted here time and time again so I guess this post is no crime.

I'm still working on descending with confidence but can't seem to nail it. If I put weight on the pedals I can feel the bike stabilise as the centre of gravity lowers, but the steering then become too light (to my mind) and I feel less in control. If I put weight on the bars the road vibration induces wobble and makes me feel as if I'm about to come off. Any speed over 30mph seems insane. Has anyone faced this and cracked it?

All the usual comments like HTFU and MTFU taken as read. 8)

daxplusplus

Could it be your bike rather than you?

I'm pretty new to road bikes so my only experience is on my 2010 Trek 1.5 and it's totally stable at speed - doesn't really matter what I do with the pedals. I don't put a lot of weight on them when I'm coasting - sometimes I pedal like a nutter and put loads of power through them .. makes no difference to the handling whatsoever.

I am on the drops when I'm really tanking it (approx 50mph) down the Old Cirencester Road into Cheltenham.

However going down the hill past the Green Dragon I hit 30mph max on the hoods and it's absolutely stable. I can steer, brake .. all fine. BTW I'm on the hoods mainly because I really, really don't want to go any faster down that hill!

I grip the hoods pretty tight becuase it feels like there's more chance of my hands slipping off - I'm gripping the hood, steering the bike and using the brakes - all from that one position and although I'm pretty strong I'd say being on the hoods is not ideal). On the drops I'm much more relaxed becuae it's a much more stable postion for both my body and my hands.

I can't imagine I'm doing anything that much different from you .. so maybe it is a bike thing?

Peddle Up!

Thanks for your comments. I've had a bike fit and I'm completely comfortable on the bike for long periods under a range of conditions except going fast downhill.

I know the Elkstone road and can understand why you throttle back. :shock:

FSR_XC

I find taking my weight off the saddle and leaning forward slightly balances the bike better.

Then it's a case of just relaxing and steer when you need to.

I tend to be on the drops defending as I have better braking and control.

daxplusplus

Get a Fireblade motorbike and then your perception of what is a fast downhill speed on two wheels will be changed forever

.. I've travelled hundreds of thousands of miles on motorbikes (so I'm used to very high speed on something that has two wheels, is basically unstable and vulnerable) .. so maybe my outlook on risk on two wheels is simply different from yours?

I like to think mine is simply highly developed but I do understand that I may have this completely the wrong way around

JonnyJH

I’m also very new to cycling but haven’t had too much trouble with descending. I haven’t really pushed much over 30mph yet, but I’m still exploring my own ability with regard to strength and fitness...
I went down a pretty steep hill today and just coasted but still hit 32mph, I could have easily pushed it much higher but the road surface was like the surface of the moon and I knew the hardest climb of the ride was coming just after I hit the bottom. But felt solid as a rock on the drops.
I don’t know much about bikes but I would wonder if it might be more it than you?

ddraver

Practice and more practice dude...Even Sean Kelly concurred at the Giro.

desweller

Coming down the likes of Frocester Hill or Selsley Hill, I'd be in the drops, holding the bars with a loose grip, elbows well bent, weight off the saddle and pushed slightly back with both knees bent. The idea is to let the bike ride the bumps as easily as possible. You shouldn't be thinking about putting in any significant steering inputs; leaning will do all the steering for you, and the bars will go with the lean of the bike.

If the front is wobbling a lot you should check that the front wheel is true and balanced, as if it's not it will impart vibration to the frame. Put the bike upside down on bars and saddle and give the wheel a good spin; it will be obvious if there is a radial true or balance problem as the frame will shake with the wheel rotation rate.

Leeuw

DesWeller wrote:

Coming down the likes of Frocester Hill or Selsley Hill, I'd be in the drops, holding the bars with a loose grip, elbows well bent, weight off the saddle and pushed slightly back with both knees bent. The idea is to let the bike ride the bumps as easily as possible. You shouldn't be thinking about putting in any significant steering inputs; leaning will do all the steering for you, and the bars will go with the lean of the bike.

Yup, works for me - and weight off the saddle, pushed back slightly also gives temporary respite to your sit bones - which can make a long ride more comfortable by the end. I've cracked top 40s/mid-50s many times (never cracked 60mph though!), and always felt in control - the loose grip in particular works for me.

NITR8s

You will eventually get faster and faster in the decents, until you come to an immediate stop. At which point you will have to start all over again.

Zoomer37

Great article on descending fast http://www.flammerouge.je/content/3_fac ... escend.htm

morstar

Make sure your headset is nice and tight too. Not suggesting for one minute this is the cure all, but if it is at all loose, the bike doesn't feel quite so planted. If it's only the tiniest bit loose, it is almost totally unnoticeable until you hit higher speeds.

edhornby

hands in the drops elbows bent - yes
don't grip hard on bars - yes
sit on back of saddle - yes

leg on inside of corner fully bent - outside leg fully straight and put your weight onto this pedal

GENTLE pressure on the outside handlebar to stop the bike drifting out into the corner

get entry speed right so that you aren't braking in the corner - look through the corner and let the lean guide you through

on the main BRadar site there are videos explaining how to

racingcondor

The speed wobble you are experiencing could be caused by you, the bike or (much more likely) both.

As others have said the best way to descend is to get your weight just off the saddle and try to keep your body relaxed, feet level if you are going straight or outside foot planted (down and your weight on it) if you are cornering.

Assuming you are doing that then it's also possible that the bike is causing speed wobble. Unfortunately curing that is a lot harder as it's caused by all sorts of things from geometry and stiffness of the bike to the weight and positioning of the rider. I had it on my first road bike from about 33mph (which I think was caused by the forks being rather flexy) but know several people with the same bike who have never had problems. On Sunday I raced and was hitting 45mph every lap with no problems (crippling terror aside :oops: ).

Peddle Up!

Thanks for all the tips guys. The bike is fine - I think it's just me. How can I increase my confidence without "bottling out" and coming off?

Azhar

Peddle Up! wrote:

Thanks for all the tips guys. The bike is fine - I think it's just me. How can I increase my confidence without "bottling out" and coming off?

i was like this at first, just gotta go for it. it'll be scary but once u get past that barrier you'll want to get faster. theres a descent near mine which gets to about 30 mph, at first i was keeping hold of the brakes all the way down, then i got hold of it half way down and yesterday managed to get all the way down without ever touching the break and staying in that low down aerodynamic position. you will get used to it mate. just keep at it.

daxplusplus

Peddle Up! wrote:

the steering then become too light

and

Peddle Up! wrote:

the road vibration induces wobble and makes me feel as if I'm about to come off.

I let the steering do what ever it wants to do .. just the lightest of touches/pressure is all it needs to steer at speed. If the road is in such a state that your getting wobbles then fair enough your proably going too quick .. however I'm guessing that your worried even when the road is smoothish and the vibration your talking about is actually not that bad?

You don't say that your worried about corners so I'll assume it's not. So if its "just" going quickly downhill then keep on reading ..

I think the key thing to remember is: if the bike is 100% OK then the faster you go the more it will want to stay upright and go in a straightline .. it's basic physics. So if you fear that the bike is suddenly going to throw you off or vear off into the hedge (or worse) then that is simply is not going to happen if all your doing is travelling down a hill at speed.

That's not what you should be worried about (easy for me to say sat here). The thing to be worried about is the stupidly large reduction in time that you've got to react if anything unexpected happens eg a pot hole on your line, a broken down car on a blind bend, mud thrown off a tractor all over a corner. These things you should be worried about and not the ability of the bike to descend quickly - descending quickly is absolutely one of the things it's designed to do. But if your to be on the bike when it's doing this then you have to believe in your bike and it's abilities as well as your own.

Apologies if this is all teaching you to suck eggs or stating the bleeding obvious.

desweller

Ooh, forgot to mention; good tyres can make the all the difference. If your experience of your tyres is that they slide around a lot, you're not going to want to throw it at a corner at 45mph.

Mikey23

an interesting debate with lots of helpful info. For me its just getting my head to understand that i am not going to fall off going down a straight hill at 30mph, my bike is not going to fail on me and im only going to get that by doing it over and over again until the fear diminishes.

was absolutely terrified the other day in a sportive with lots of sections down narrow country lanes in wet and windy conditions where overnight there had been lots of standing and running water, potholes, rocks, twigs, mud and various other bits of debris and to have people whizzing past me from behind at speed when all i could do was hang on to my brakes and pray!

Peddle Up!

Mikey23 wrote:

was absolutely terrified the other day in a sportive with lots of sections down narrow country lanes in wet and windy conditions where overnight there had been lots of standing and running water, potholes, rocks, twigs, mud and various other bits of debris and to have people whizzing past me from behind at speed when all i could do was hang on to my brakes and pray!

This! And me muttering "Mad, mad". :oops:

daxplusplus

Damn internet just ate my post .. posting again.

Irrational fear (fear of something that has no real basis in reality) is something that can be addressed. There are articles out that should be able to help.

In climbing (something that I'm also into) the irrational fear of falling* is something just about all climbers have problems with. The current thinking on how to address this is:

1. Take baby steps. You could attempt to face your fear head on but TBH it probably won't work (or else you wouldn't be in yor current situation.) In fact attempt to progress too quickly is actually bad .. it reinforces your fear.

2. Practise, practise, practise. Start easy and don't move on to the next level until your happy with your current level. Again progress too quickly can mean taking a step back as confidence can easily be lost.

3. Even when you've beaten your fear its a good idea to practise and top up your confidence everyonce in a while. Start small and build up again.

Please note I'm specifically talking about irrational fears. There are plenty of rational fears out there and these are treated differently.

* We could have a discussion about how any fear of falling could possibly be irrational but I think we'd probably be heading off on a bit of a tangent. Lets just say there are times when worrying about falling is valid and others when it is not .. fear can paralyse you - stop you both moving, reacting and thinking correctly and actually cause whatever it is you dread.

buzzwold

Couldn't see any comments on this, but if I may be so bold - How old are you?

I'm 50 and started back on roadbikes about a month ago. I'm at the same place as you mentally but I also think the inbuilt fear of falling offnot stopping increases with age.

I've noticed that road bikes can be twitchy and concur with others when they point towards the bike. Maybe we need to get confident in the bike as well as practise and perfect our skills.

Just edged into the low thirties but having said that I'm not sure I feel the need to go any faster than mid thirties anyway. I'm not racing. As long as crack that - I can control this moment, then I'll be happy.

Good Luck. We'll get to where we want to go in the end.

Muffintop

The Flame Rouge article is very good. One thing I found is that when I'm in the 'zone' (i.e. not sh!tting myself with my eyes closed) on decending your arms should feel light and just be holding your headset in place - you should be able to wriggle your fingers and thumbs as you go down and even when you turn, your palms should be touching the handle bars helping you lean. Leaning not turning is key, and not looking where your front wheel is going but where you want to go (the hardest part!). To this end I spent a couple of early mornings going round in circles in my local park with no one there, practicing turning by keeping my head a full 45 degees from the position of the front wheel, trying to do tighter and tighter cirlces, and figures of eight, trying to go round and inbetween those weird concrete ball things they've got.

Lastly - don't be pushed, practice the 'back off' sign - taking your right hand off the handlebars, and pushing your hand palm open towards the person/vehicle behind you - so anyone behind you knows you're not comfortable and might need space they can either go past you or slow down themselves, either way they should get out of your line. It does come eventually - I'm much better now than I was a year ago and I'm fairly sure I'll get better still. Doing it safetly is the main thing.

Mx

Mikey23

60 and I think that may have much to do with it. I recall when I was young being out on my bike all the time and having no fear. I am getting better, appreciate all the sensible advice and am pleased it isn't just me

Peddle Up!

buzzwold wrote:

Couldn't see any comments on this, but if I may be so bold - How old are you?

I'm 50 and started back on roadbikes about a month ago. I'm at the same place as you mentally but I also think the inbuilt fear of falling offnot stopping increases with age.

I've noticed that road bikes can be twitchy and concur with others when they point towards the bike. Maybe we need to get confident in the bike as well as practise and perfect our skills.

Just edged into the low thirties but having said that I'm not sure I feel the need to go any faster than mid thirties anyway. I'm not racing. As long as crack that - I can control this moment, then I'll be happy.

Good Luck. We'll get to where we want to go in the end.

+9 on you.

I'm convinced that the bike is OK - it's just me. I'm happy to push it at 30mph on the flat (OK, a slight incline) with the bike rocking as I push the pedals, but when I come to face a steep downhill stretch something in me freezes.

KBO (1 not 2!) I guess.

rick_chasey

Descending well is about letting the bike do the work.

So as long as you're comfortable and confident the bike will hold, it's about being as loose on it as possible.

The front wheel shouldn't be too light - you're going downhill.

Brake less, be smooth and slow with the movements on the bike and you'll be going great guns in no time.

---

If you know someone who does descend quite well, try and find a corner that they don't brake for but you do, and follow them down. That, hopefully, will give you the confidence that the tyres will stick.

springtide9

It is all about practice and and balance. You are right in saying if you lean backwards you loose traction on the front, but if you lean forwards the back becomes light.

The technique is all about balance and what you want the bike to do.

For cornering, you need some weight over the front wheel to get the wheel to grip (and not wash out). If your weight is way too far forward, the backend will become light and start overtaking you. So there is a balance.

You also need to be very smooth both with braking as well as weight distribution.

There are occasions where you actually want less traction on the wheels, such as going over a load of rough ground (which you can't avoid).. where putting your weight backwards will reduce the risk of the front wheel following a rut etc.

It's unfortunate that on a road bike there is very little warning between having lots of grip and the bike washing out. Balance while descending is much easier to learn on a MTB where the speeds are generally slowerl it's normal to loose tractionl things happen much slower and are easier to control/recover; as well as controlling slides becoming second nature.

I'm still cautious at descending on the roadie; for me having an off at speed is something that I need to avoid at all costs, as the hassle it would cause to family life would give me grief from the wife for months if not years!
Personally I prefer the challenge of getting to the top of the hill fast rather than descending

apreading

+1 to all SpringTide says, especially about it not being worth the risk of going too fast for the reward.

I am happier doing speeds on flat or small incline than I would be doing the same speed on a steep bit - because I know any braking will also be fighting gravity & momentum all of which is against me and brakes could fade or overheat if I need to stop or slow down for some reason.

Even worse if the lighting is not great or it is possibly wet or crappy surface with bumps/ruts/potholes.

I have built up what I am happy with though - from feeling unconfortable even at 25mph on a steep hill to now feeling quite happy at 35 on a moderately steep hill, but I still bottle out of that speed if the hill is really steep or has other factors like unsighted bends etc.

madtam

There are some hills that are just right for more speed though. A short steep hil with a few bends is not good as it would be too easy to get out of shape and in to trouble. But a reasonably steep straight hill with a long run out just cries out for maximum effort at the top and then a neat tucked position to see if you can crack 50mph. For me the "other " side of Holme Moss is good as the final section is steep but then runs out round a shallow bend and uphill. I have braked on the final section but after a couple of runs you realise it's fine and keep off the brakes. After that it's just a question of hitting the steepest bit at higher speed and in the best aero tuck. Best speed seen recently has been 51.8 but I will be back.