New Wheels

Rich-hill

Hi All,

I am new to the forum, infant my first post. I currently ride a Kouta Korsa and I am looking to upgrade my wheels. I don't have a budget as such, but want to get the best I can, value for money.
I ride regularly, although not competing, hoping to get into some late this year or next year.
A local shop has Fast Forward Wheel Set 700 F4r in stock, and have found them for a food price too. Is there anything else that competes with these rims? Or are they mega over kill?

Many thanks in advance for any help and guidance.

Rich.

smidsy

They appearto be tubs and not clinchers. If you are not competing do you think that is the route to take?

Rich-hill

Ah I thought they were clinchers?
http://www.bicyclechain.co.uk/productde ... ctid=23740

smidsy

Hmmm. I went to Fast Forwards site and they say tub?

Looking deeper the F4r are tub but they also do the F4rC which are clincher. Sorry for the confusion.

Still £975 for a set of wheels - they better be bloomin good. They are not hugely light but perhaps they are super stiff?

Monty Dog

Best value? Planet-X for £400 or some Chinese carbon jobs from ebay

Rich-hill

smidsy wrote:

Hmmm. I went to Fast Forwards site and they say tub?

Looking deeper the F4r are tub but they also do the F4rC which are clincher. Sorry for the confusion.

Still £975 for a set of wheels - they better be bloomin good. They are not hugely light but perhaps they are super stiff?

I have found them for under £700. In this price range is there anything else to consider?

Mike39496

You might even be better getting a good set of training wheels you can race with and deeper section race wheels. Like say some Ksyrium Elites and a set of Planet X deep sections. Not sure if you would have to change brake pads between the two though. You may be better just having one and then spending the rest of the money on coaching and a bike fit.

One problem is that Planet X appear to have basically no stock at the moment on wheels.

smidsy

Well there are certainly lots in that price range but depends if you want factory built or hand built.

Also are you set on carbon or would Aluminium be an option? Many on here will say hand built are a better option.

Personally I have American Classic 420 Aero wheels. They are a similar section to the FFW you looked at (34mm rim) but made from Aluminium. The RRP is £600 but they can be had for £500ish.

They weigh 1530g the pair and have a unique cam operated set of pawls which all engage togther. They also have very light hubs and can have ceramic bearings as an option. They have aero spokes too.

I really like them and have done about 500 miles on them so far without issue. Nice and stiff and spin up nice.

There are other options in Factory wheels like Mavic, Easton, Panet X etc. all with similar price point offering.

For hand builts Ugo is the man to give all the gen.

ugo.santalucia

Honestly,
900 pounds for a set of wheels that weigh the same as a basic set of Open PRO 28 on basic taiwanese hubs (200 pounds give or take) is a bit of a con... they buy you in with the lure of a 30-40 mm deep rim as if that meant you can overtake a Lamborghini, but the famous aero advantage is very very elusive, especially with mid section rims...
I don't want to play the same record over and over, but if you are after substance rather than fashion, forget about deep section rims and get a set of light, well built wheels... hand made or made by a machine will determine whether they can be fixed or not... typically machine made wheels are hard to fix and spares are scarce and stupidly priced.
Just to give you an idea, an Open PRO rim retails for around 40-45 pounds, while a Ksyrium Elite rim (if you find it) comes at around £ 150... a conventional spoke is 50 pence, a Mavic spoke 5 pounds

Rich-hill

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Honestly,
900 pounds for a set of wheels that weigh the same as a basic set of Open PRO 28 on basic taiwanese hubs (200 pounds give or take) is a bit of a con... they buy you in with the lure of a 30-40 mm deep rim as if that meant you can overtake a Lamborghini, but the famous aero advantage is very very elusive, especially with mid section rims...
I don't want to play the same record over and over, but if you are after substance rather than fashion, forget about deep section rims and get a set of light, well built wheels... hand made or made by a machine will determine whether they can be fixed or not... typically machine made wheels are hard to fix and spares are scarce and stupidly priced.
Just to give you an idea, an Open PRO rim retails for around 40-45 pounds, while a Ksyrium Elite rim (if you find it) comes at around £ 150... a conventional spoke is 50 pence, a Mavic spoke 5 pounds

Thanks for your reply. Substance is defiantly what I'm after. So you don't think the aero advantage is worth it?

ugo.santalucia

Rich-hill wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Honestly,
900 pounds for a set of wheels that weigh the same as a basic set of Open PRO 28 on basic taiwanese hubs (200 pounds give or take) is a bit of a con... they buy you in with the lure of a 30-40 mm deep rim as if that meant you can overtake a Lamborghini, but the famous aero advantage is very very elusive, especially with mid section rims...
I don't want to play the same record over and over, but if you are after substance rather than fashion, forget about deep section rims and get a set of light, well built wheels... hand made or made by a machine will determine whether they can be fixed or not... typically machine made wheels are hard to fix and spares are scarce and stupidly priced.
Just to give you an idea, an Open PRO rim retails for around 40-45 pounds, while a Ksyrium Elite rim (if you find it) comes at around £ 150... a conventional spoke is 50 pence, a Mavic spoke 5 pounds

Thanks for your reply. Substance is defiantly what I'm after. So you don't think the aero advantage is worth it?

Not at all

bisoner

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Honestly,
900 pounds for a set of wheels that weigh the same as a basic set of Open PRO 28 on basic taiwanese hubs (200 pounds give or take) is a bit of a con... they buy you in with the lure of a 30-40 mm deep rim as if that meant you can overtake a Lamborghini, but the famous aero advantage is very very elusive, especially with mid section rims...
I don't want to play the same record over and over, but if you are after substance rather than fashion, forget about deep section rims and get a set of light, well built wheels... hand made or made by a machine will determine whether they can be fixed or not... typically machine made wheels are hard to fix and spares are scarce and stupidly priced.
Just to give you an idea, an Open PRO rim retails for around 40-45 pounds, while a Ksyrium Elite rim (if you find it) comes at around £ 150... a conventional spoke is 50 pence, a Mavic spoke 5 pounds

I've just ordered my first pair of handmade wheels.

I've got a pair of Shimano RS-80's - spoke went about 6 weeks ago. Still got another 4 weeks before I get the replacement spoke. I know that's not the same for every branded wheel, but it's certainly opened my eyes. I'll certainly never buy Shimano wheels again.

ugo.santalucia

bisoner wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Honestly,
900 pounds for a set of wheels that weigh the same as a basic set of Open PRO 28 on basic taiwanese hubs (200 pounds give or take) is a bit of a con... they buy you in with the lure of a 30-40 mm deep rim as if that meant you can overtake a Lamborghini, but the famous aero advantage is very very elusive, especially with mid section rims...
I don't want to play the same record over and over, but if you are after substance rather than fashion, forget about deep section rims and get a set of light, well built wheels... hand made or made by a machine will determine whether they can be fixed or not... typically machine made wheels are hard to fix and spares are scarce and stupidly priced.
Just to give you an idea, an Open PRO rim retails for around 40-45 pounds, while a Ksyrium Elite rim (if you find it) comes at around £ 150... a conventional spoke is 50 pence, a Mavic spoke 5 pounds

I've just ordered my first pair of handmade wheels.

I've got a pair of Shimano RS-80's - spoke went about 6 weeks ago. Still got another 4 weeks before I get the replacement spoke. I know that's not the same for every branded wheel, but it's certainly opened my eyes. I'll certainly never buy Shimano wheels again.

Yes it is annoying. There was a guy on another thread saying the spoke of another shimano set did fit the rs80 I seem to recall.
What did you go for?

bisoner

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bisoner wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Honestly,
900 pounds for a set of wheels that weigh the same as a basic set of Open PRO 28 on basic taiwanese hubs (200 pounds give or take) is a bit of a con... they buy you in with the lure of a 30-40 mm deep rim as if that meant you can overtake a Lamborghini, but the famous aero advantage is very very elusive, especially with mid section rims...
I don't want to play the same record over and over, but if you are after substance rather than fashion, forget about deep section rims and get a set of light, well built wheels... hand made or made by a machine will determine whether they can be fixed or not... typically machine made wheels are hard to fix and spares are scarce and stupidly priced.
Just to give you an idea, an Open PRO rim retails for around 40-45 pounds, while a Ksyrium Elite rim (if you find it) comes at around £ 150... a conventional spoke is 50 pence, a Mavic spoke 5 pounds

I've just ordered my first pair of handmade wheels.

I've got a pair of Shimano RS-80's - spoke went about 6 weeks ago. Still got another 4 weeks before I get the replacement spoke. I know that's not the same for every branded wheel, but it's certainly opened my eyes. I'll certainly never buy Shimano wheels again.

Yes it is annoying. There was a guy on another thread saying the spoke of another shimano set did fit the rs80 I seem to recall.
What did you go for?

I went for Velocity A23 rims, Novatec A291 / F482 Hubs (24:28), Sapim laser spokes. Once I've repaired my RS80's I will probably sell them.

ugo.santalucia

bisoner wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bisoner wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Honestly,
900 pounds for a set of wheels that weigh the same as a basic set of Open PRO 28 on basic taiwanese hubs (200 pounds give or take) is a bit of a con... they buy you in with the lure of a 30-40 mm deep rim as if that meant you can overtake a Lamborghini, but the famous aero advantage is very very elusive, especially with mid section rims...
I don't want to play the same record over and over, but if you are after substance rather than fashion, forget about deep section rims and get a set of light, well built wheels... hand made or made by a machine will determine whether they can be fixed or not... typically machine made wheels are hard to fix and spares are scarce and stupidly priced.
Just to give you an idea, an Open PRO rim retails for around 40-45 pounds, while a Ksyrium Elite rim (if you find it) comes at around £ 150... a conventional spoke is 50 pence, a Mavic spoke 5 pounds

I've just ordered my first pair of handmade wheels.

I've got a pair of Shimano RS-80's - spoke went about 6 weeks ago. Still got another 4 weeks before I get the replacement spoke. I know that's not the same for every branded wheel, but it's certainly opened my eyes. I'll certainly never buy Shimano wheels again.

Yes it is annoying. There was a guy on another thread saying the spoke of another shimano set did fit the rs80 I seem to recall.
What did you go for?

I went for Velocity A23 rims, Novatec A291 / F482 Hubs (24:28), Sapim laser spokes. Once I've repaired my RS80's I will probably sell them.

Nice!

Rich-hill

Thank you for all the feedback.
So it appears no one favours these expensive off the shelf wheels. So where should I head to get a good set of hand build wheels.

I had seen these on eBay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Reynolds-DV3K ... 290wt_1102

Rich-hill

Or these?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Infinito-R4C- ... _500wt_689

ugo.santalucia

I think Bisoner made the right choice,
Velocity A 23 is a good rim, which ticks all the performance boxes, including that of having a more aerodynamic profile than conventional boxed rims. It doesn't break the bank either.
24/28 is a great combination, but 20/24 is stiff enough for most riders and with the latter it is not difficutl to keep the weight under 1500 grams at a very affordable price.
High profile carbon rims look nice, if you like them, but they have drawbacks for the every day rider... the braking is somewhat vague and on clinchers can be scary on long descends if they do overheat. I think outside time trialling and track/circuit racing they are un-necessary fashion statements

Rich-hill

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I think Bisoner made the right choice,
Velocity A 23 is a good rim, which ticks all the performance boxes, including that of having a more aerodynamic profile than conventional boxed rims. It doesn't break the bank either.
24/28 is a great combination, but 20/24 is stiff enough for most riders and with the latter it is not difficutl to keep the weight under 1500 grams at a very affordable price.
High profile carbon rims look nice, if you like them, but they have drawbacks for the every day rider... the braking is somewhat vague and on clinchers can be scary on long descends if they do overheat. I think outside time trialling and track/circuit racing they are un-necessary fashion statements

Thanks for the reply, where is best to purchase the above and where to have them built?

huuregeil

Ugo,

I've got to say I disagree with your pronouncements on deep section wheels and carbon braking - I wonder, have you ever ridden on raced on these?! Or used full carbon rims with decent pads for any significant period of time (e.g. 1000miles plus)?

To the OP, I think the F4r is a super wheelset and I'd snap a pair up at £700 given the opportunity *if* you're looking at racing (either road or TTs) later this year. I agree, for everyday riding, these are overkill, though you will notice the low rotational weight and you do notice the aero advantage (not on a steady solo effort, it counts more when you hit the front on a fast-paced group ride, or indeed in a race situation). So, a luxury if not racing, but definitely something you want to take to the start-line with you. Personally, I'd go for it - FFWD wheels are hand-built and the rims are extremely well made and good value.

Have fun choosing!

ugo.santalucia

huuregeil wrote:

Ugo,

I've got to say I disagree with your pronouncements on deep section wheels and carbon braking - I wonder, have you ever ridden on raced on these?! Or used full carbon rims with decent pads for any significant period of time (e.g. 1000miles plus)?

To the OP, I think the F4r is a super wheelset and I'd snap a pair up at £700 given the opportunity *if* you're looking at racing (either road or TTs) later this year. I agree, for everyday riding, these are overkill, though you will notice the low rotational weight and you do notice the aero advantage (not on a steady solo effort, it counts more when you hit the front on a fast-paced group ride, or indeed in a race situation). So, a luxury if not racing, but definitely something you want to take to the start-line with you. Personally, I'd go for it - FFWD wheels are hand-built and the rims are extremely well made and good value.

Have fun choosing!

I've ridden downhill with people on full carbon, and their braking is simply pathetic, which does not inspire confidence in them and makes the descending more of an effort than what it's supposed to be = fun. Add the endless reports on tyres getting off the rim for overheated clinchers and you have a good picture. I don't get why anyone would want to descend from a well deserved climb up the Galibier worrying whether the tyre is going to explode out of the rim... it defies the all point of climbing a col.

Re. the wheels: Low rotational weight? Which low rotational weight? The set comes at 1625 grams with light hubs and low spoke count on aerolite spokes, which are very light. Where is the weight if not in the rim? They are probably 460-490 grams each, which is not a stone, but it's more than any conventional alloy rim.
I don't think they do tick any single box... actually they do tick one... conventional build means spare parts can be sourced easily

bisoner

Rich-hill wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I think Bisoner made the right choice,
Velocity A 23 is a good rim, which ticks all the performance boxes, including that of having a more aerodynamic profile than conventional boxed rims. It doesn't break the bank either.
24/28 is a great combination, but 20/24 is stiff enough for most riders and with the latter it is not difficutl to keep the weight under 1500 grams at a very affordable price.
High profile carbon rims look nice, if you like them, but they have drawbacks for the every day rider... the braking is somewhat vague and on clinchers can be scary on long descends if they do overheat. I think outside time trialling and track/circuit racing they are un-necessary fashion statements

Thanks for the reply, where is best to purchase the above and where to have them built?

I ordered my wheels from this guy - http://www.dcrwheels.co.uk/

He's really helpful and has responded to all my emails promptly.

Rich-hill

Oh I am still unsure.
The wheels I have currently are Ambrosio Evolution on an Ambrosio hub. So I don't want to step val from these.

The FF ones which were recommended to me had alloy rims, so would brake still be an issue?

I have also been looking at velocity A23 rims

styxd

Veolicty A23's are apparently very good, I have th aeroheads which are a bit narrower and a bit lighter.

I'd get some Stans Alphas if you've got the cash though, very light alloy clinchers. Get them built onto some decent hubs, probably with a 28/24 spoke 2x build (your wheel builder will advise)

Try Just Riding Along for a quote.

ugo.santalucia

Rich-hill wrote:

Oh I am still unsure.
The wheels I have currently are Ambrosio Evolution on an Ambrosio hub. So I don't want to step val from these.

The FF ones which were recommended to me had alloy rims, so would brake still be an issue?

I have also been looking at velocity A23 rims

Braking would not be an issue, but full alloy deep section rims are typically very heavy, check them out. The only braking issue is with carbon rims with carbon braking surface, especially clinchers.

Your Ambrosio Zenith hubs are rebranded Novatec 171/172 and the Evolution are excellent rims, in fairness probably the best rim in terms of value for money. It is very difficult to find them these days... I would definitively keep them.

Rich-hill

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Rich-hill wrote:

Oh I am still unsure.
The wheels I have currently are Ambrosio Evolution on an Ambrosio hub. So I don't want to step val from these.

The FF ones which were recommended to me had alloy rims, so would brake still be an issue?

I have also been looking at velocity A23 rims

Braking would not be an issue, but full alloy deep section rims are typically very heavy, check them out. The only braking issue is with carbon rims with carbon braking surface, especially clinchers.

Your Ambrosio Zenith hubs are rebranded Novatec 171/172 and the Evolution are excellent rims, in fairness probably the best rim in terms of value for money. It is very difficult to find them these days... I would definitively keep them.

I can always keep them as spares, but they have become battered and buckled and taking quite a pounding. The front is still in good order but the rear has seen much better days

ugo.santalucia

Rich-hill wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Rich-hill wrote:

Oh I am still unsure.
The wheels I have currently are Ambrosio Evolution on an Ambrosio hub. So I don't want to step val from these.

The FF ones which were recommended to me had alloy rims, so would brake still be an issue?

I have also been looking at velocity A23 rims

Braking would not be an issue, but full alloy deep section rims are typically very heavy, check them out. The only braking issue is with carbon rims with carbon braking surface, especially clinchers.

Your Ambrosio Zenith hubs are rebranded Novatec 171/172 and the Evolution are excellent rims, in fairness probably the best rim in terms of value for money. It is very difficult to find them these days... I would definitively keep them.

I can always keep them as spares, but they have become battered and buckled and taking quite a pounding. The front is still in good order but the rear has seen much better days

The beauty of hand builts is that they can be fixed... send them over... they are definitively keeper

huuregeil

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I've ridden downhill with people on full carbon, and their braking is simply pathetic, which does not inspire confidence in them and makes the descending more of an effort than what it's supposed to be = fun.

So, basically you haven't ridden on full-carbon rims, your opinion is based on how the subset of other riders with carbon rims you ride with ride them! The braking, with decent pads, is fine. Different feel, but fine and it's frankly not an issue at all in the real-world. (To the OP, if you're looking at the clincher F4r, they have an alloy brake track, braking is as normal. Non issue - this is just an aside!)

Have you raced on deep section rims too?

Add the endless reports on tyres getting off the rim for overheated clinchers and you have a good picture. I don't get why anyone would want to descend from a well deserved climb up the Galibier worrying whether the tyre is going to explode out of the rim... it defies the all point of climbing a col.

I wouldn't ride deep sections down the galibier for other reason. I'd be perfectly happy on a pair of shallow section carbon tubs though, I'd love to own a pair of these! It comes down to intended usage ultimately.

Re. the wheels: Low rotational weight? Which low rotational weight? The set comes at 1625 grams with light hubs and low spoke count on aerolite spokes, which are very light. Where is the weight if not in the rim? They are probably 460-490 grams each, which is not a stone, but it's more than any conventional alloy rim.
I don't think they do tick any single box... actually they do tick one... conventional build means spare parts can be sourced easily

OK, tub vs clincher, the tub is a very light rim, the clincher is, as you say late-400-something. Which is basically the same as the A23, once you factor in the additional spokes. Gnat's... You don't notice this (You notice e.g. the rotational weight difference when it becomes siginficant, e.g. going from a 1600g wheel to a sub 1400g wheel). You do, however, notice the aero difference, this is where the gains come, this is why you should be racing on these things!

To the OP again, if you're serious about wanting to race later this gear, go with some aero rims, especially given you already have a decent set of box section rims (re-rim the rear if it's shot - if you can't find the Evolution, the Excursion is the same rim minus the machined brake track). If you're not going to race, rather you want a sportive/sunday-best wheelset, then by all means the A23s with nice hubs, light spokes, will make for a decent wheelset.

ugo.santalucia

huuregeil wrote:

OK, tub vs clincher, the tub is a very light rim, the clincher is, as you say late-400-something. Which is basically the same as the A23, once you factor in the additional spokes. Gnat's... You don't notice this (You notice e.g. the rotational weight difference when it becomes siginficant, e.g. going from a 1600g wheel to a sub 1400g wheel). You do, however, notice the aero difference, this is where the gains come, this is why you should be racing on these things!

The A 23 is still lighter and it comes in 20/24 drillings too. I've just built a rather inexpensive set of these at 1470 grams. However, where you do really feel the difference between the two sets is when it comes to paying... as I said in the other thread, with the money you pay for these, you can buy the A 23 set, and onother set of wheels and the tyres for both and probably you can even squeeze in an airfare to Geneva to climb the Grand Saint Bernard (or other).

jonny_trousers

Forgive me for not only jumping in on this thread, but for essentially reposting what I recently submitted to Commuting Chat.

Decent wheels for my Genesis Equilibrium.

I've got a pair of Campagnolo Khamsins on at the moment, which are fine and will continue to do their duty on the commute, but now that I'm getting into longer, quicker riding that inevitably involves hills, I was wondering if I would see a noticable difference if I was to spend up to £500 (preferably a little less) on a new set of wheels for training/sportive purposes?

I do intend to buy a lighter bike next year and would like to join a club, but for a number of reasons, for now I'm on the Equilibrium only and grabbing longer rides when I can, and on my own.

I've had enough people in the know tell me that spending a little cash on a decent set of wheels will never be regreted, but the Equilibrium must be a hefty, old chap as it is, so would I perhaps not see enough of a difference to justify the expense?

Thanks in advance!

Rich-hill

It appears I have sparked quite a debate. I am sitting on my money and continuing to read before making a choice