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Democracy...

Cleat EastwoodCleat Eastwood Posts: 7,508
edited June 2017 in The cake stop
And free thinking philosophy,*

Well what do you think? The two ideals do share some surface similarities - the idea that democracy and philosophy are essentially discursive and from such discussions emerge a truth. Both democracy and philosophy insists that such discussions and revisions be ongoing and modified.

Yet the purpose of philosophical investigation is about discovering a truth - democracy is about providing a platform from which to launch that search. Democracy has such has no truth - so what value has democracy?

*Not sure if Cake Stop is the right place for this question, it seems a little too playful. :D
The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns
momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.

Posts

  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    Cleat Eastwood wrote:
    so what value has democracy?

    None, the group who shouts loudest, no matter how small, gets listened to.
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • team47bteam47b Posts: 6,424
    Democracy is an egalitarian form of government in which all the citizens of a nation together determine public policy, so there is no democracy, so the platform for the search for truth does not exist, making philosophical truth hard to find.

    But then again this could be pure boll...
    my isetta is a 300cc bike
  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    team47b wrote:
    But then again this could be pure boll...

    Careful, caaareful............ language like that in CakeStop might invoke a visit from the ban stick ! :lol:

    (I have to add the lol smiley, so that big brother realises it's humour, is not having a go at anyone, and belongs in here)
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • antflyantfly Posts: 3,276
    Pseudo-intellectual claptrap, baby.
    Smarter than the average bear.
  • team47bteam47b Posts: 6,424
    ...Bollandists,

    who are an association of scholars, philologists, and historians (originally all Jesuits, but now including non-Jesuits) who since the early seventeenth century have studied hagiography and the cult of the saints in Christianity.

    was what I was gonna' say :D

    smiley to show that I have not taken offense at anything Matt may have implied
    my isetta is a 300cc bike
  • mangliermanglier Posts: 1,075
    Beware of gifts from the Greeks, to paraphrase an old maxim.
  • Frank the tankFrank the tank Posts: 6,553
    Democracy is alright until someone votes for the other side. :lol:
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • alihisgreatalihisgreat Posts: 3,872
    MattC59 wrote:
    Cleat Eastwood wrote:
    so what value has democracy?

    None, the group who shouts loudest, no matter how small, gets listened to.

    Nope. Pluralism. See Dahl (1961) - Who Governs?
  • team47bteam47b Posts: 6,424
    ALIHISGREAT wrote:
    MattC59 wrote:
    Cleat Eastwood wrote:
    so what value has democracy?

    None, the group who shouts loudest, no matter how small, gets listened to.

    Nope. Pluralism. See Dahl (1961) - Who Governs?


    Dahl said in 'Who Governs?'...

    Voting equality at the decisive stage:
    Each citizen must be assured his or her judgments will be counted as equal in weights to the judgments of other
    my isetta is a 300cc bike
  • nathancomnathancom Posts: 1,567
    Freedom of speech is the most important attribute of a democratic system, not the voting system.
  • team47bteam47b Posts: 6,424
    Sorry didn't mean to emphasise the voting element, what I meant was...

    Each forumite must be assured his or her voiced opinion will be counted as equal in weights to the judgments of others

    Freedom of speech is a given, being listened to would be good too.

    Or as Matt said...
    "the group who shouts loudest, no matter how small, gets listened to."
    my isetta is a 300cc bike
  • nathancomnathancom Posts: 1,567
    We are customers not citizens though. Bike Radar is trying to maximise revenue as much as possible by creating a place that is accessible to as many as possible through restricting freedom of speech. It leads to a very anaemic and sterile online world, but in consumer-democracy people vote with their feet.

    What surprises me is that forum users willingly give up their time to act as unpaid mods. What do they get out of it? Monthly reacharounds from the online editor?
  • msmancuniamsmancunia Posts: 1,415
    But you aren't exactly a customer - you don't pay for access to this site. You're a user. You don't really have any say in what the owners do, apart from voting with your feet, as you say.

    It's a fine line between making the place accessible and as friendly to as many as possible without alienating the existing users. Not an easy job to do.
    Commute: Chadderton - Sportcity
  • alihisgreatalihisgreat Posts: 3,872
    msmancunia wrote:
    But you aren't exactly a customer - you don't pay for access to this site. You're a user. You don't really have any say in what the owners do, apart from voting with your feet, as you say.

    It's a fine line between making the place accessible and as friendly to as many as possible without alienating the existing users. Not an easy job to do.


    We are the customer... because we use their service in exchange for something of value. The revenue is coming from advertising.. but without us that revenue doesn't flow.

    So we are providing the revenue with our clicks and memberships.

    A quick look at Wikipedia would have provided you with a more informed definition of being a 'customer'.
  • team47bteam47b Posts: 6,424
    We are the commodity.
    my isetta is a 300cc bike
  • nathancomnathancom Posts: 1,567
    msmancunia wrote:
    But you aren't exactly a customer - you don't pay for access to this site. You're a user. You don't really have any say in what the owners do, apart from voting with your feet, as you say.

    It's a fine line between making the place accessible and as friendly to as many as possible without alienating the existing users. Not an easy job to do.
    Like you say it is not an easy job. I am sure we have all seen forums that make Cake Stop/Bottom Bracket look exceptionally tame but you become weary of them quite quickly because only a handful of people post of them, the same in jokes get recycled all the time, and shock value just becomes boring very fast.

    Bike Radar is generally welcoming and the wide range of views makes for a much more interesting forum. I am relatively new to this forum so I don't think this change is that radical or upsetting, but people who have invested more into the forum are obviously going to be annoyed for a short while. Anyway if if brings people like yourself to post in Cake Stop more then it can't be a bad thing to widen the gene pool.
  • Daz555Daz555 Posts: 3,976
    nathancom wrote:
    Freedom of speech is the most important attribute of a democratic system, not the voting system.
    Shame that it does not exist then in any democracy.
    You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
    If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
    If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.
  • HoopdriverHoopdriver Posts: 2,023
    Cleat Eastwood wrote:
    And free thinking philosophy,*

    Well what do you think? The two ideals do share some surface similarities - the idea that democracy and philosophy are essentially discursive and from such discussions emerge a truth. Both democracy and philosophy insists that such discussions and revisions be ongoing and modified.

    Yet the purpose of philosophical investigation is about discovering a truth - democracy is about providing a platform from which to launch that search. Democracy has such has no truth - so what value has democracy?

    *Not sure if Cake Stop is the right place for this question, it seems a little too playful. :D
    Plato wasn't a big fan of democracy. He believed in a benign elite who could make the correct choices for the untutored masses....
    http://www.My-Bicycle-and-I.com
  • team47bteam47b Posts: 6,424
    [/quote] Plato wasn't a big fan of democracy. He believed in a benign elite who could make the correct choices for the untutored masses....[/quote]

    Plato's book The Republic is a great book, especially for the bewildered herd, well worth a read if you haven't already read it.
    my isetta is a 300cc bike
  • Frank the tankFrank the tank Posts: 6,553
    I was watching QI the other week and Stephen Fry was saying in the past the Greeks had a system whereby the "politicians" in government were not elected but randomly called up to serve, very much like being called for jury service here today. I don't recall what the system was called.

    There are some obvious pro's and con's with the said system though.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • FocusZingFocusZing Posts: 4,373
    nathancom wrote:
    Freedom of speech is the most important attribute of a democratic system, not the voting system.

    Exactly, if you can be free, speak and be important, then democracy gets two votes from me.
  • pinnopinno Posts: 49,276
    Uh?! Why this random, belated resuscitation of an old thread?

    Anyway, everybody should be happy - after all we've just had a General Election.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
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