Democracy...

Cleat Eastwood

And free thinking philosophy,*

Well what do you think? The two ideals do share some surface similarities - the idea that democracy and philosophy are essentially discursive and from such discussions emerge a truth. Both democracy and philosophy insists that such discussions and revisions be ongoing and modified.

Yet the purpose of philosophical investigation is about discovering a truth - democracy is about providing a platform from which to launch that search. Democracy has such has no truth - so what value has democracy?

*Not sure if Cake Stop is the right place for this question, it seems a little too playful.

MattC59

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

so what value has democracy?

None, the group who shouts loudest, no matter how small, gets listened to.

team47b

Democracy is an egalitarian form of government in which all the citizens of a nation together determine public policy, so there is no democracy, so the platform for the search for truth does not exist, making philosophical truth hard to find.

But then again this could be pure boll...

MattC59

team47b wrote:

But then again this could be pure boll...

Careful, caaareful............ language like that in CakeStop might invoke a visit from the ban stick !

(I have to add the lol smiley, so that big brother realises it's humour, is not having a go at anyone, and belongs in here)

antfly

Pseudo-intellectual claptrap, baby.

team47b

...Bollandists,

who are an association of scholars, philologists, and historians (originally all Jesuits, but now including non-Jesuits) who since the early seventeenth century have studied hagiography and the cult of the saints in Christianity.

was what I was gonna' say

smiley to show that I have not taken offense at anything Matt may have implied

manglier

Beware of gifts from the Greeks, to paraphrase an old maxim.

Frank the tank

Democracy is alright until someone votes for the other side.

alihisgreat

MattC59 wrote:

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

so what value has democracy?

None, the group who shouts loudest, no matter how small, gets listened to.

Nope. Pluralism. See Dahl (1961) - Who Governs?

team47b

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

so what value has democracy?

None, the group who shouts loudest, no matter how small, gets listened to.

Nope. Pluralism. See Dahl (1961) - Who Governs?

Dahl said in 'Who Governs?'...

Voting equality at the decisive stage:
Each citizen must be assured his or her judgments will be counted as equal in weights to the judgments of other

nathancom

Freedom of speech is the most important attribute of a democratic system, not the voting system.

team47b

Sorry didn't mean to emphasise the voting element, what I meant was...

Each forumite must be assured his or her voiced opinion will be counted as equal in weights to the judgments of others

Freedom of speech is a given, being listened to would be good too.

Or as Matt said...
"the group who shouts loudest, no matter how small, gets listened to."

nathancom

We are customers not citizens though. Bike Radar is trying to maximise revenue as much as possible by creating a place that is accessible to as many as possible through restricting freedom of speech. It leads to a very anaemic and sterile online world, but in consumer-democracy people vote with their feet.

What surprises me is that forum users willingly give up their time to act as unpaid mods. What do they get out of it? Monthly reacharounds from the online editor?

msmancunia

But you aren't exactly a customer - you don't pay for access to this site. You're a user. You don't really have any say in what the owners do, apart from voting with your feet, as you say.

It's a fine line between making the place accessible and as friendly to as many as possible without alienating the existing users. Not an easy job to do.

alihisgreat

msmancunia wrote:

But you aren't exactly a customer - you don't pay for access to this site. You're a user. You don't really have any say in what the owners do, apart from voting with your feet, as you say.

It's a fine line between making the place accessible and as friendly to as many as possible without alienating the existing users. Not an easy job to do.

We are the customer... because we use their service in exchange for something of value. The revenue is coming from advertising.. but without us that revenue doesn't flow.

So we are providing the revenue with our clicks and memberships.

A quick look at Wikipedia would have provided you with a more informed definition of being a 'customer'.

team47b

We are the commodity.

nathancom

msmancunia wrote:

But you aren't exactly a customer - you don't pay for access to this site. You're a user. You don't really have any say in what the owners do, apart from voting with your feet, as you say.

It's a fine line between making the place accessible and as friendly to as many as possible without alienating the existing users. Not an easy job to do.

Like you say it is not an easy job. I am sure we have all seen forums that make Cake Stop/Bottom Bracket look exceptionally tame but you become weary of them quite quickly because only a handful of people post of them, the same in jokes get recycled all the time, and shock value just becomes boring very fast.

Bike Radar is generally welcoming and the wide range of views makes for a much more interesting forum. I am relatively new to this forum so I don't think this change is that radical or upsetting, but people who have invested more into the forum are obviously going to be annoyed for a short while. Anyway if if brings people like yourself to post in Cake Stop more then it can't be a bad thing to widen the gene pool.

Daz555

nathancom wrote:

Freedom of speech is the most important attribute of a democratic system, not the voting system.

Shame that it does not exist then in any democracy.

Hoopdriver

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

And free thinking philosophy,*

Well what do you think? The two ideals do share some surface similarities - the idea that democracy and philosophy are essentially discursive and from such discussions emerge a truth. Both democracy and philosophy insists that such discussions and revisions be ongoing and modified.

Yet the purpose of philosophical investigation is about discovering a truth - democracy is about providing a platform from which to launch that search. Democracy has such has no truth - so what value has democracy?

*Not sure if Cake Stop is the right place for this question, it seems a little too playful.

Plato wasn't a big fan of democracy. He believed in a benign elite who could make the correct choices for the untutored masses....

team47b

[/quote] Plato wasn't a big fan of democracy. He believed in a benign elite who could make the correct choices for the untutored masses....[/quote]

Plato's book The Republic is a great book, especially for the bewildered herd, well worth a read if you haven't already read it.

Frank the tank

I was watching QI the other week and Stephen Fry was saying in the past the Greeks had a system whereby the "politicians" in government were not elected but randomly called up to serve, very much like being called for jury service here today. I don't recall what the system was called.

There are some obvious pro's and con's with the said system though.

FocusZing

nathancom wrote:

Freedom of speech is the most important attribute of a democratic system, not the voting system.

Exactly, if you can be free, speak and be important, then democracy gets two votes from me.

pinno

Uh?! Why this random, belated resuscitation of an old thread?

Anyway, everybody should be happy - after all we've just had a General Election.