Who Won If Lance Didn't...

Secteur

Hi all, a friend of mine wrote this and I feel it deserves a wider audience as it makes really interesting reading.

With the new accusations against Lance, and the suggestion he is stripped of his Tour titles, it poses the question: Who won instead?

If you go through the history of the Tour and remove all people in 1999-2005 who have confessed to doping or been banned, we have:

1999: Escartin (originally third).
2000: Escartin (originally eighth).
2001: Kivilev (originally fourth, rode for Cofidis who were dopey as you like at the time.)
2002: Azevedo (originally sixth, but a USPS and ONCE product, bound to be on the sauce - next is Sastre in tenth.)
2003: Zubeldia (originally fifth, deeply suspicious acquaintances in Euskatel-Euskadi)
2004: Azevedo - discounted as he was then in USPS and one of the "white lunch bag" team-within-a-team group. Next is Totschnig, a product of the Gerolsteiner factory of filth - leaving us with Sastre again, originally eigth.
2005: Cuddles himself, originally eighth.

So, if we rewrite history: Sastre is a three-time TdF winner. Cuddles has it twice, and the whole case for persecuting Pharmstrong (who I happen to think is quite obviously as guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo) becomes ridiculous.

In fact, the only modern names to which doping has not been attached are Sastre, Cadel Evans and, er, that's it. Before that you have to go back to Greg LeMond.

Any thoughts?

shinyhelmut

Escartin?!?

Mad_Malx

Think you need to look at FrenchFighters thread, with a graphic that says it all:
viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12859836

Le Commentateur

Just leave the records blank as a reminder.

morstar

Secteur wrote:

and the whole case for persecuting Pharmstrong (who I happen to think is quite obviously as guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo) becomes ridiculous.

Any thoughts?

Thoughts yes, as per many others on the long thread. Why the comeback????

If he'd just stayed away counting his money, his legacy was tainted as hell but, in context of his rivals, a product of that era. Maybe we could all have moved on.

The comeback was a great big 'I am bigger than this sport' ego trip. If that is ultimatley what leads to his downfall, he has it coming as far as I am concerned. I have felt this from the very moment his comeback was announced.

As an aside. What also pees me off is the hypocricy of some 'fans' of cycling. I remember watching the 2008 tour when riders had stopped performing miraculous feats quite so readily. Some of the most fervent anti Armstrong, anti dopers slated the riders for riding up mountains in small elite groups and not being able to put in attacks big enough to distance everybody. IMHO, this was the reality of a cleaner sport. It seems some wanted (and still do) the impossible performance from a purer than pure peloton.

cal_stewart

I'd let lance keep them as they were all on the gear. I've said it before lance's problem is his personality i.e. he's a ....

TheBigBean

What about Christophe Moreau, wasn't he supposed to be clean after Festina?

sherer

TheBigBean wrote:

What about Christophe Moreau, wasn't he supposed to be clean after Festina?

wasn't he target tested in the tour a few years ago when he road for Abrituribel and then pulled out with a mystery back injury

cycling5280

Secteur wrote:

Hi all, a friend of mine wrote this and I feel it deserves a wider audience as it makes really interesting reading.

With the new accusations against Lance, and the suggestion he is stripped of his Tour titles, it poses the question: Who won instead?

If you go through the history of the Tour and remove all people in 1999-2005 who have confessed to doping or been banned, we have:

1999: Escartin (originally third).
2000: Escartin (originally eighth).
2001: Kivilev (originally fourth, rode for Cofidis who were dopey as you like at the time.)
2002: Azevedo (originally sixth, but a USPS and ONCE product, bound to be on the sauce - next is Sastre in tenth.)
2003: Zubeldia (originally fifth, deeply suspicious acquaintances in Euskatel-Euskadi)
2004: Azevedo - discounted as he was then in USPS and one of the "white lunch bag" team-within-a-team group. Next is Totschnig, a product of the Gerolsteiner factory of filth - leaving us with Sastre again, originally eigth.
2005: Cuddles himself, originally eighth.

So, if we rewrite history: Sastre is a three-time TdF winner. Cuddles has it twice, and the whole case for persecuting Pharmstrong (who I happen to think is quite obviously as guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo) becomes ridiculous.

In fact, the only modern names to which doping has not been attached are Sastre, Cadel Evans and, er, that's it. Before that you have to go back to Greg LeMond.

Any thoughts?

give it another decade. Who knows who else might come out and claim Sastre and Evans doped. Lemond was a doper.

dave_1

I think the fact we can't find a viable clean name to promote into Lance place shows exactly why nobody could trust anybody and doping got justified by that. If Lance hadn't doped and had trusted others then he would have been a fool too as they were all on the gear as he rightly assumed. Leave the 7 TDF wins as his. I do think someone should drag Indurain into a court room and put him under oath too.

liquor box

this is copied from another site, looks to be about right
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=9925

Ok. This is my crazy list. This is the Criteria used:

Anything related with doping and is out. Even if it is strong gossip (works with Ferrari), issues that has not been processed by the UCI (Frank Schleck money to Fuentes, Armstrong positives, Kloden transfusion visits, Human Plasma visitors, Puerto Nicknames, etc).


I usually stopped when I heard nothing of the rider. There are no warranties that he was cleanish but I have nothing:

1999
10- Andrea Peron (?)
17- Kurt Van de Wouwer
18- David Etxebarria

2000
16- Roberto Conti (?)
17- Kurt Van de Wouwer
18- Guido Trentin

2001
6- Andrei Kivilev (?)
7- Francois Simon
12- Iñigo Chaurreau

2002
10 Carlos Sastre
13- David Moncoutie
14- Massimiliano Lelli (?)
15- Stephen Goubert

2003
9- Carlos Sastre
13- Peter Luttember
15- Massimiliano Lelli (?)
18- Roberto Laiseka

2004
8- Carlos Sastre
13- Vladimir Karpets
16- Sandy Casar

2005
8- Cadel Evans
20- Giussepe Guerini
21- Carlos Sastre

2006
4- Carlos Sastre
5- Cadel Evans
7- Cyril Dessel

2007
2- Cadel Evans
4- Carlos Sastre
7- Kim Kirchen

2008
1- Carlos Sastre
2- Cadel Evans
5- Christian Vandevelde

2009
2- Andy Schleck
4- Bradley Wiggins
8- Christian Vandevelde

2010
2- Andy Schleck
4- Samuel Sanchez
5- Jurgen Van den Broek

If you feel that a rider should be out please do tell the doping offense.

Note: By the way, there is no way I can make a list for ten riders. I could probably get to the Lanterne Rouge

Monty Dog

Strike his name as victor but don't reallocate like Rijs in 1996. Andy Schleck clean? Or does going to a gynaecologist for training plans not count?

iainf72

Monty Dog wrote:

Strike his name as victor but don't reallocate like Rijs in 1996. Andy Schleck clean? Or does going to a gynaecologist for training plans not count?

Wrong Schleck.

inkyfingers

iainf72 wrote:

Monty Dog wrote:

Strike his name as victor but don't reallocate like Rijs in 1996. Andy Schleck clean? Or does going to a gynaecologist for training plans not count?

Wrong Schleck.

With those two as close as they are, do you think that Frank wouldn't share his "training plan" with his brother?

dougzz

Monty Dog wrote:

Strike his name as victor but don't reallocate like Rijs in 1996. Andy Schleck clean? Or does going to a gynaecologist for training plans not count?

That was Frank, they really are separate people, although at times it's hard to tell. But let's be honest, who'd be shocked at an Andy positive.

dougzz

Damn you people are fast. It's 7:30 on a Saturday, and you're online, how sad is that, oh... yeah :oops:

disgruntledgoat

I like this game... I was playing it yesterday in fact!

See below for my list and some comments on some of yours

1999

1. Stephane Heulot
2. Christophe Moreau
3. Francois Simon

I think all 3 of yours would be viewed as suspect given their ONCE, Lotto and Euskaltel teams. Admittedly, my logic extends to "The french went crazy after Festina and really cleaned up their act".

2000

1. Christophe Moreau
2. Pascal Herve
3. Jean Cyril Robin

2001.

1. Francois Simon
2. Didier Rous
3. Alexandre Bocharov

2002.

1. Carlos Sastre
2. David Moncoutie
3. Stephane Goubert

You had Lelli, who was near enough named in Millar's book as being his supplier.

2003.

1. Christophe Moreau
2. Carlos Sastre
3. Didier Rous

2004.

1. Carlos Sastre
2. Christophe Moreau
3. Sandy Casar

2005.

1. Cadel Evans
2. Christophe Moreau
3. Carlos Sastre

You can never have that certainty, however, as you will never know how the race would have played out without most of the top 20 there. That's the bit that makes me really angry. Also, look at some of those riders who have been derided as no marks for years... Their careers were stolen by the likes of Armstrong, Basso, Mayo, Ullrich, Kloden et al.

cal_stewart

I wouldn't trust sastre as he's spanish

shinyhelmut

Dave_1 wrote:

I think the fact we can't find a viable clean name to promote into Lance place shows exactly why nobody could trust anybody and doping got justified by that. If Lance hadn't doped and had trusted others then he would have been a fool too as they were all on the gear as he rightly assumed. Leave the 7 TDF wins as his. I do think someone should drag Indurain into a court room and put him under oath too.

Exactly this, a summary of a generation of cycling.

k-dog

Le Commentateur wrote:

Just leave the records blank as a reminder.

I think you're going to have to strike off the vast majority of the years in that case - sure there are a couple like Evans and maybe Lemond - but if you go back to the 70s and before they were all on something. It wasn't especially scientific but amphetamines and the like were just taken for granted.

DeadCalm

So Carlos Sastre a five times tour winner then...

sherer

the difference was in the LA era he had a team wide doping ban, possibly backed up by the UCI. No one else had that. After the Festina scandal he took doping to a new level when everyone else was scaling back. In the years afterwards I think it was just a few people still doing individual programmes rather than team wide.

Also with EPO different people respond better than others, add in Ferrari on an exclusive contract to only work with USPS

k-dog

sherer wrote:

No one else had that.

:lol

cajun_cyclist

Who needs BikingBernie's or Ian's Trolling Idiotic Anti-Religious Remarks, can't think of yourself, while Mainland Europe is in the toilet. Big deal. You got tolerance? Mainland European? Man, what a loose cannon bikingbernie is, devotes his life to his anti-man-crush to Lance Armstrong, can't allow someone to say one thing before showing his intolerant idiocy. Big Deal.

ilovebigwig

Que??

dougzz

@Cajun - Whatever else they might be at least they post in the correct thread. Too much southern spirit maybe?

Monty Dog

cajun_cyclist wrote:

Who needs BikingBernie's or Ian's Trolling Idiotic Anti-Religious Remarks, can't think of yourself, while Mainland Europe is in the toilet. Big deal. You got tolerance? Mainland European? Man, what a loose cannon bikingbernie is, devotes his life to his anti-man-crush to Lance Armstrong, can't allow someone to say one thing before showing his intolerant idiocy. Big Deal.

If you've got nothing to add, why post? Otherwise, we'll all call you out as a weapon's grade moron with your xenophobic, jingoistic nonsense.

dave_1

DeadCalm wrote:

So Carlos Sastre a five times tour winner then...

I found Sastre's warm words towards Saiz a bit of a surprise. And Sastre was on the Once team. Once's Saiz at the time organised "Active rest"..basically a month off in May..which seems so fishy now

No_Ta_Doctor

Dave_1 wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

So Carlos Sastre a five times tour winner then...

I found Sastre's warm words towards Saiz a bit of a surprise. And Sastre was on the Once team. Once's Saiz at the time organised "Active rest"..basically a month off in May..which seems so fishy now

I think it's fairly obvious that they should just annul the results and leave it at that.

dave_1

No tA Doctor wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

So Carlos Sastre a five times tour winner then...

I found Sastre's warm words towards Saiz a bit of a surprise. And Sastre was on the Once team. Once's Saiz at the time organised "Active rest"..basically a month off in May..which seems so fishy now

I think it's fairly obvious that they should just annul the results and leave it at that.

wonder how ASO will rewrite the wins? Maybe they will just ignore WADA? It would look terrible having gaps there..only world wars cause gaps in the TDF hall of fame

cal_stewart

Dave_1 wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

So Carlos Sastre a five times tour winner then...

I found Sastre's warm words towards Saiz a bit of a surprise. And Sastre was on the Once team. Once's Saiz at the time organised "Active rest"..basically a month off in May..which seems so fishy now

he's Spanish so no you can't trust him