Genesis croix der fer and day one alfine

samsbike
samsbike Posts: 942
edited June 2012 in Road general
Both these bikes are in reynolds tubing (725 and 835 respectively) and I realise that alfine gears are heavy.

Both a quick search on the web and people's opinions are that they are heavy.

Can anyone help me understand why? I thought reynolds tubing is strong and light.

thanks

Comments

  • mattrixdesign2
    mattrixdesign2 Posts: 644
    samsbike wrote:
    Both these bikes are in Reynold's tubing (725 and 835 respectively) and I realise that alfine gears are heavy.

    Both a quick search on the web and people's opinions are that they are heavy.

    Can anyone help me understand why? I thought Reynold's tubing is strong and light.

    thanks

    I presume its a combo of Material (Steel vs others), Frame (Built to last/strong), Alfine (as above), Disc Brakes (heavier than non disc options), Wheels/Tyres (wider/heavier)... then compare that to similar "looking" road bikes, and you have a several pounds difference.

    I imagine they are still light compared to a MTB?
  • samsbike
    samsbike Posts: 942
    Actually I think they are heavier
  • giant_man
    giant_man Posts: 6,878
    I'm hankering after one of these Genesis bike have to say, to use as a 'do everything' bike. I inially thought of a Croix De Fer, although the orange Day One Alfine 8 speed is also nice. Not sure why the Alfine 11 speed is only available in white though, same as the CdeFer. I would have thought a different colour could be offered.

    Weight wise, yeah they are reputed to be heavy, although a test ride is the only way to tell for sure.
  • reformedfatty
    reformedfatty Posts: 543
    I've had a go on the alfine. Whilst its noticably heavier than your typical road bike to pick up, it doesnt feel it on the move. I felt immediately confident on it after just a few metres. It feels very chuckable but in a more MTB kind of way rather than say my road bike (ribble winter) which I'd call agile but not chuckable.
  • giant_man
    giant_man Posts: 6,878
    reformedfatty wrote:
    I've had a go on the alfine. Whilst its noticably heavier than your typical road bike to pick up, it doesnt feel it on the move. I felt immediately confident on it after just a few metres. It feels very chuckable but in a more MTB kind of way rather than say my road bike (ribble winter) which I'd call agile but not chuckable.
    That's the important thing to me anyhow ...
  • k-dog
    k-dog Posts: 1,652
    Those alfine hubs are really heavy on their own - I was surprised when my LBS showed me one out of the frame.

    I've just ordered the single speed version (with disks) which is a whole lot lighter - and £300 cheaper too.
    I'm left handed, if that matters.
  • giant_man
    giant_man Posts: 6,878
    do you know the weights of Genesis' models? They don't seem to display them on their web site ...
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    The croix de fer is heavy, but it can be lightened in the right places by replacing the cumbersome wheels with a lighter set. I have built a set of ambrosio excellence on novatec hubs for mine and lost nearly 1 kg... The bike is now significantly faster and still strong enough.
    Bear in mind this massive upgrade did cost me around 220 pounds of material
    left the forum March 2023
  • giant_man
    giant_man Posts: 6,878
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    The croix de fer is heavy, but it can be lightened in the right places by replacing the cumbersome wheels with a lighter set. I have built a set of ambrosio excellence on novatec hubs for mine and lost nearly 1 kg... The bike is now significantly faster and still strong enough.
    Bear in mind this massive upgrade did cost me around 220 pounds of material
    Interesting, i am thinking the Alfine models are heavier than the CdeF, any pics of said bike + wheels? Any weight saving is a good thing on these, and makes it more viable than previously thought.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    giant man wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    The croix de fer is heavy, but it can be lightened in the right places by replacing the cumbersome wheels with a lighter set. I have built a set of ambrosio excellence on novatec hubs for mine and lost nearly 1 kg... The bike is now significantly faster and still strong enough.
    Bear in mind this massive upgrade did cost me around 220 pounds of material
    Interesting, i am thinking the Alfine models are heavier than the CdeF, any pics of said bike + wheels? Any weight saving is a good thing on these, and makes it more viable than previously thought.

    Here you go
    cdf2.jpg
    cdf3.jpg
    DSCF1084.jpg
    left the forum March 2023
  • giant_man
    giant_man Posts: 6,878
    They do look in keeping with the bike also, ugo, what weight have you got your ride down to now?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    giant man wrote:
    They do look in keeping with the bike also, ugo, what weight have you got your ride down to now?

    10.3 Kg as opposed to 12.5 it was before... but it's not 100% wheels, the Campagnolo groupset helps too. I think 700-800 grams are down to wheels.
    If you are interested in a wheelset like this, send me a PM, I don't think you can have them made anywhere else
    left the forum March 2023
  • k-dog
    k-dog Posts: 1,652
    That would seem about right - I saw a post on another forum that said that a CdF was 26lbs - don't know what size or how accurate that is but that would seem reasonable from what you say.
    I'm left handed, if that matters.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    I love that bike, I can keep up on a 17-18 mph sunday ride, but at the same time I always find myself looking for that patch of rough road or cobbles... it's just so smooth on the stones, you can't help but diving into them.... :lol:
    left the forum March 2023
  • giant_man
    giant_man Posts: 6,878
    Jeeezus 26lbs, I'm not surprised ugo got some lighter wheels, so would I(!)
  • nferrar
    nferrar Posts: 2,511
    I have a day on SS - it's mostly the wheels and fork that make it unusually heavy, although it doesn't actually feel heavy riding it.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    My view is that all Genesis steel bikes are excellent frames, but in order to meet the 1 K psychologial barrier (and the cycle to work scheme voucher, I guess) they have fitted low spec parts to fit the bill. All these bikes are in urgent need of an upgrade. I have built many bikes, but I was shocked at the improvements I made by rebuilding the Croix de Fer. Commuting times went from 42 minutes to 33-35, that is beyond what one would expect and frankly difficult to put down to bike only. Being a wheel builder, I "blame" it to my wheels of course... truth is I don't know as all the upgrades came together... I dismanteled a road bike I had, sold the frame and put the components on the CdF and built the new wheels pretty much at the same time.
    It's been so good that taking the panniers rack on and off has become a bearable weekly job, rather than investing in a road bike for "weekend only" use
    left the forum March 2023
  • Malersh
    Malersh Posts: 13
    I think we need to be clear about what these bikes are - they're cross / touring bikes, not really road bikes. I've just ridden my Day 01 Alfine 8 on a long distance European route (8 day tour) and the bike was I think ideal for this - I didn't want to worry about dodgy indexing in the Czech countryside and the over-engineered build is perfect for touring on rough roads with panniers. In addition the all steel construction (inc forks) means they can sail through airport luggage handling without a large protective case.

    Although I do use mine as a winter bike, I would never have bought it as a standard commuter - it's just too bombproof and heavy, and if you get into manically making it lighter I think it's maybe a sign that it was the wrong bike for you in the first place. In addition the 8spd is only really geared for about 16/17mph which for use unladen on roads is just silly low. Put some panniers on and ride up a gravel road in Eastern Europe / ride in 3 inches of mud and it starts to make sense... :D
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    Malersh wrote:
    I think we need to be clear about what these bikes are - they're cross / touring bikes, not really road bikes. I've just ridden my Day 01 Alfine 8 on a long distance European route (8 day tour) and the bike was I think ideal for this - I didn't want to worry about dodgy indexing in the Czech countryside and the over-engineered build is perfect for touring on rough roads with panniers. In addition the all steel construction (inc forks) means they can sail through airport luggage handling without a large protective case.

    Although I do use mine as a winter bike, I would never have bought it as a standard commuter - it's just too bombproof and heavy, and if you get into manically making it lighter I think it's maybe a sign that it was the wrong bike for you in the first place. In addition the 8spd is only really geared for about 16/17mph which for use unladen on roads is just silly low. Put some panniers on and ride up a gravel road in Eastern Europe / ride in 3 inches of mud and it starts to make sense... :D

    I built a new set of wheels out of frustration with the hubs it came with... they were basic Deore hubs, terrible, they kept coming loose, they didn't spin freely and they didn't even spin right... the balls and cones wore very quickly giving rise to an almost elliptical rotation... they were awful. As for overengineered... well they were very heavy wheels, but I did break a spoke, so not so overengineered. With the new lighter ones I use panniers and I go offroad and still have to find the drawback...
    There is overengineered and there is cheap, those wheels were simply cheap
    left the forum March 2023
  • samsbike
    samsbike Posts: 942
    I think this is ignorance on my part. I failed to understand the difference in touring bikes, CX and road bikes.

    I simply thought that these would be just as quick as a road bike, but I guess the geometry, extra strenght etc will count against it. I just like the idea of discs for wet weather

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