Enve 45 VS 303 Firecrest

suddons

Hello All,

Putting a new bike together ( R3 ) Just the wheels now to purchase - I have it down to 2 sets.

Enve 45 / CK R45 hubs ( Clinchers ) or Zipp303 CC Firecrest

Type of riding: very hilly & strong winds - reserved for best bike sunny days etc . . .

Costs 303's = 1700 GBP Enve = 2095 GBP

I know both sets are great, But would be interested to here people experience / opinions of either set - The cost is not an issue just want to get the best out of either sets.

Thanks

JS

sungod

based on what i've read, i'd say the 303 fc for the better aero performance, but personally i wouldn't go for carbon clinchers, imho alloy clincher or carbon tubs

have a look on ww, plenty of discussion on both there, including posts from one of the zipp engineers, for instance this thread (you need to mentally edit out the non-fc side discussions!)...

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... =3&t=97599

can't resist asking, if it's very hilly and strong winds, why not some light low profile wheels? you can probably save yourself 300-400g vs the enves/zipps

foggymike

You might wait a while for comments from people who have actually owned kit of this level but you never know!

I've been eyeing up some Zipp 303's myself (currently on Cosmic SLR's) so I'd lean that way given the press comments about wind handling which is the main thing, but in the real world I'm sure they'd both be OK once you'd got used to how they handle the gusts. I'd follow your heart not your head on this one.

suddons

sungod wrote:

can't resist asking, if it's very hilly and strong winds, why not some light low profile wheels? you can probably save yourself 300-400g vs the enves/zipps

Well, I do have a set of DT RR 415 laced to Chris KIng R45 & these are great, But on the days when the wind dose die down a little would be nice to have a set with deeper sections.

I also travel allot ( with bike ) & I do get the chance to ride some flatter terrain again would be good to have a more aero set of wheels.

ugo.santalucia

Although Tom boonen zipp 303 are not the same you buy online, the rims are (at least the tubs are). He won Paris roubaix on those... So they are pretty tough guys... I would buy them with confidence, but would get the tubs. Carbon clinchers are only a very expensive compromise

itsnotarace

I have 4 months riding on Zipp 303 tubulars now (non FC) and they are by far the best all-round wheelset I have ever ridden. The FC versions are supposed to be even better in crosswinds but I haven't experienced any problems with my wheels on days with 20mph constant breeze and 30mph gusts. In fact I have been blown across the road more often on my Mavic Ksyrium Elites - maybe because they are more box like and with flatter, wider spokes. I'm not an aerodynamicist so couldn't tell you.

I wouldn't choose the clincher versions over tubular though. If I had to choose between the two clincher wheelsets posted I would probably go for the Enve build but I would also be looking hard at a second hand Lightweight Standard C set

meesterbond

Can't say I have any experience with either, although have been researching for a potential future purchase. I'd have a chat with Wheelsmith.co.uk and see what they can build you with an Enve or maybe AX-Lightness rim.

If they're genuinely just for best, then I wouldn't discount tubs either. They're not that much harder to mount and use (just carry a Pitstop cannister with you) and when you're going that upmarket, I can't help feel that clinchers are a bit of a compromise.

jezzpalmer

Have you considered the Enve 3.4 Smart rims, a clincher version has recently been released.
Supposedly far more aero than the 45s bringing them more inline with the 303 firecrest, not sure on the comparitive costs beween the 45s and 3.4s though.

I have a set of Cycleops rebadged Enve 45 CCs with G3 powertap, but I've no experience of anything else of that ilk to compare them to. Cross winds are not as bad as I thought they'd be, probalby no worse than my DA C24s, if anything they are more predictable.
I paid £200 less for them that you have quoted for 45s with CK hubs with some wiggle discount codes and quidco.

suddons

jezzpalmer wrote:

Have you considered the Enve 3.4 Smart rims, a clincher version has recently been released.
Supposedly far more aero than the 45s bringing them more inline with the 303 firecrest, not sure on the comparitive costs beween the 45s and 3.4s though.

Hello JP, I have look at the above but we would be starting to get up to 2,500 GBP ( TUBS ), I know I said cost is not a problem in the opening thread, But I think I have to stop somewhere . . or do I . . .? ; )


& thank you for all your comments thus far – Much appreciated

Mccaria

It's a question I have been thinking about. I think the Enve 3.4s should be about £2.2k in clincher form - when they are available. Given list price is £2.4k, but then most places you can get circa 10% off. You also have a choice of King or DT Swiss hubs. Or you can go the route of getting the rim and pairing it with the hub of your choice if they do the hub in the right number of spoke holes.

From what I understand one of the differences between Enve and Zipp is that Enve mould aound the spoke holes whereas as Zipp drill a hole. Apparently moulding is better for the integrity of the rim.

Zipp has its critics on the quality of hubs and overall stiffness but there are a lot of positive comments on the 303 Firecrest from users.

For now I am holding fire. Reason being I am on Dura ace and with the 9000 series coming out with the new hubs and 11 speed, it doesn't make sense spending 2k on a set of wheels that will not be forward compatible with Dura ace 9000, assuming the aim is to keep them a while. From what I understand 11 speed Dura ace hubs will be compatible with 10 speed Dura ace (just add spacer) but 10 speed hubs will not work with 11 speed Dura ace, so for me it makes sense to wait.

ugo.santalucia

Mccaria wrote:

It's a question I have been thinking about. I think the Enve 3.4s should be about £2.2k in clincher form - when they are available. Given list price is £2.4k, but then most places you can get circa 10% off. You also have a choice of King or DT Swiss hubs. Or you can go the route of getting the rim and pairing it with the hub of your choice if they do the hub in the right number of spoke holes.

From what I understand one of the differences between Enve and Zipp is that Enve mould aound the spoke holes whereas as Zipp drill a hole. Apparently moulding is better for the integrity of the rim.

Zipp has its critics on the quality of hubs and overall stiffness but there are a lot of positive comments on the 303 Firecrest from users.

For now I am holding fire. Reason being I am on Dura ace and with the 9000 series coming out with the new hubs and 11 speed, it doesn't make sense spending 2k on a set of wheels that will not be forward compatible with Dura ace 9000, assuming the aim is to keep them a while. From what I understand 11 speed Dura ace hubs will be compatible with 10 speed Dura ace (just add spacer) but 10 speed hubs will not work with 11 speed Dura ace, so for me it makes sense to wait.

Re the 303: If a carbon rim wins Paris-Roubaix, that's the best review it can get... at which point I care very little what a bloke in Swindon thinks about it or the biased review of a spotty freelance journalist at Cycling Weekly

Mccaria

Ugo,

It may well be that it is reflective of the number of unit Zipp sells - so there will be more absolute comments on them than others - there are also comment on failures with Enve rims, particularly prior to Enve adding a 100g of weight and strengthening the rim. I think if you are spending that much on a pair of wheels, it is something you should at least consider. I also understand that both Zipp and Enve are usually very good in helping customers who have had problems, which is reassuring if something does go wrong.

By the way a product winning an event does not necessarily ensure the product quality. Apparently the Specialized Sl3 has been ridden to a number of Grand Tour victories, but can I make mine go that fast ? Clearly a problem with that frameset.

ugo.santalucia

Mccaria wrote:

Ugo,


By the way a product winning an event does not necessarily ensure the product quality. .

That's not just an event... it's rims carnage... I have seen wheels bent at 90 degrees... up to a few years ago virtually the whole peloton was riding Ambrosio Nemesis, as it was pretty much the only rim for the job, you can hang a beef carcass to one of those without it changing shape. Recently some high profile riders have started using carbon rims and winning. If a carbon rim does well in the Paris Roubaix, it is testimony of not just good but excellent quality.
As for any carbon product, there will be some defective ones, that's why there is a warranty, but the non defective ones are pretty damn good!

Mccaria

I have a set of the Ambrosio Nemesis and concur on the strength of that rim !

Ugo - I would be interested do you have a view if teams were typically using the Zipp wheels or lacing the Zipp rims to other hubs ? If you just buy the rim you clearly have much greater personal choice on the hub and can have more input on the stiffness.

ugo.santalucia

Mccaria wrote:

I have a set of the Ambrosio Nemesis and concur on the strength of that rim !

Ugo - I would be interested do you have a view if teams were typically using the Zipp wheels or lacing the Zipp rims to other hubs ? If you just buy the rim you clearly have much greater personal choice on the hub and can have more input on the stiffness.

I have Nemesis too...
http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m49 ... mesis1.jpg

I have the feeling all top riders are on customised wheels, especially for the demanding races. It might be that the domestiques ride standard, as there are only so many wheels a builder can do, but I am confident Tom Boonen and Cancellara don't ride off the peg stuff, in the same way as they do have that french artisan making special tubular tyres for them. If you look carefully, it's always the crap riders that smash wheels at the Roubaix, hardly ever the favourites

foggymike

Do you get crap riders at Paris-Roubaix? Don't know what that makes the rest of us!

ugo.santalucia

foggymike wrote:

Do you get crap riders at Paris-Roubaix? Don't know what that makes the rest of us!

Plenty, they push for the first 100 Km in the wind until the cobbles start and then they disappear because they can't ride on stones. If you watch the race, there are about 30 riders left by the time they get to Arenberg, those who can ride on stones... the rest of the peloton is either retired or tottering around minutes behind

napoleond

Wiggo had done enves built up with CK hubs at the Dolphiny race last week...

Just thought I'd say that.

As you were.

napoleond

These look like a good strong build-

foggymike

ugo.santalucia wrote:

foggymike wrote:

Do you get crap riders at Paris-Roubaix? Don't know what that makes the rest of us!

Plenty, they push for the first 100 Km in the wind until the cobbles start and then they disappear because they can't ride on stones. If you watch the race, there are about 30 riders left by the time they get to Arenberg, those who can ride on stones... the rest of the peloton is either retired or tottering around minutes behind

Hardly crap Ugo no matter how you look at it, but I know you are talking relative to the podium contenders in the race

suddons

Thank you for all your comments.

Just to let you know I have decided to purchase the ENVE 3.4 Smart ( Clinchers )

If anyone see's them for less then 2,400 please let me know : )

JS

jewbs

I recently purchased a set of enve 45's on dt240 hubs and i'm really pleased with them. They do seem to handle strong gusty winds better than my kysirium elites and they feel a lot more comfortable to ride. They also accelerate faster and i am climbing better with them. My average times have also increased and find it easier to maintain my speed. I haven't noticed any real differences in braking, when i need to brake they work fine. I'm no expert i just want to enjoy riding my bike and for me they have increased that sense of enjoyment and make me want to ride more.

napoleond

May be worth buying from U.S. as long as you don't get stung by customs...

http://www.wheelbuilder.com/store/searc ... rch&page=1

suddons

NapoleonD wrote:

May be worth buying from U.S. as long as you don't get stung by customs...

http://www.wheelbuilder.com/store/searc ... rch&page=1

DAMN YOU

Note: Due to our international distribution agreement with Enve, we are no longer able to deliver Enve rims to customers in the following countries: Australia, Germany, Italy, Japan, Korea, Spain, Singapore, Sweden or the United Kingdom.

napoleond

Doh!
I've bought other stuff from them in the past

suddons

NapoleonD wrote:

Doh!
I've bought other stuff from them in the past

Think it must to EVNE specific doesn't say anything about Ireland . hmmmm