how are these non-named brands beating named brand specs

pianoman1980

As the title really.

There's loads of discussion all the time (rightly so) on which bikes to go for, and in the £500 to £800 price range there is absolutely tonnes of choice.

Named brands like Specialized, Giant, Trek who you would perhaps expect to be able to have the buying power to get good spec's on their bikes are being consistently beaten by the likes of Voodoo, Decathlon and Radon (from Germany). I just don't understand why this is the case. Are these brands not suffering because of their poorer specs, or because they have presence in the LBS do the majority of people simply not know (or perhaps care) that they are paying £300 for a name?

Out of all of the brands I have been considering recently, Radon appear to have the best spec for the price, closely followed by Cube (only because of the cheaper prices buying from Germany). Significantly, the biggest differences seem to be in weight, particularly with the Radon bikes. We all know that the £500 rockrider or the £450 voodoo beats (or at least matches) alot of named bikes under £650/£700.

Are we set for a revolution in bike buying behaviour as more people clock on to these better spec'd bikes from more unknown and foreign brands? Can we expect the named brands to make a move to compete and improve their spec's by cutting their profit margins?

TBH, this may not be politically correct, but I was hoping that the euro would completely crash so I could pick up a Radon for a couple hundred quid!

bennett_346

People still just go for the brands they have heard of, whether or not they are a good deal. Specialized, Trek, Giant etc have a ton of money in advertising in magazines and websites etc, so people go straight for them assuming cheap brands they have never heard of are akin to tescos value baked beans type thing.

Or something.

paul.skibum

People like to touch and feel the bike they are buying particulalrly int he budget/beginner category so people go to a bike shop, check out a spesh or trek base level bike, like it and buy it.

If you have no experience of mtbs you dont buy a bike from germany and hope it fits.

supersonic

Many of these places sell, as well as 'make' the bike ie Decathlon, Halfords and so on.

Some are internet only so reduce costs.

Some go for less profit.

Many use older stock parts.

Andy B

Some brands don't sponsor race teams

Some brands don't have a UK middleman taking their cut

Some brands don't spend a fortune on advertising

Some brands don't over stock, sometimes causing storage costs to be passed down the chain to customers

apreading

The big brands have worked out that they make more profit selling a few less bikes but at a higher price. Simple as that.

The non-name brands have to sell at a lower price to achieve sales and dont have the luury of charging as much, or they would too.

Simple economics

YeehaaMcgee

The big brands are usually the ones actually researching bike development, and therefore shoulder the R&D costs.
Without the likes of Specialised, Trek, Whyte and Giant etc etc, we wouldn't have the bikes we have today.

rockmonkeysc

You could garantee that Canyon or Rose won't come up with the next amazing leap forwards in bike technology.
What puts me off buying from a German mail order manufacturer is that I can't go in to a shop and see what the quality or finish is like.
I think Nukeproof have got it about right, they have got CRC running their race team which helps develop their bikes & sell through Hotlines so storage & distribution costs are low so bike costs are reasonably low.

YeehaaMcgee

I don't know for a fact either way - but I'd be surprised if Nukeproof's frames were anything other than rebadged production runs from somewhere.
As in, someone else did the R&D on materials, design, geometry etc etc, and they just reap the rewards.

supersonic

You could garantee that Canyon or Rose won't come up with the next amazing leap forwards in bike technology.

Really? I know for a fact these have very good R and D teams.

YeehaaMcgee

Seriously, Sonic? Very good R&D teams that came up with... "yet another FSR bike"?
Do they also work for Porsche?

supersonic

It looks like an FSR, but the axle path and anti squat curves are way different. These aren't catlaogue bikes.

YeehaaMcgee

Fair enough, I meant Horst, really.
But do you really think they share the brunt of driving things forwards? That's kind of what I'm getting at. Some of the big brands really are responsible for several advancements, and have the incurred costs of doing so.

nicklouse

RockmonkeySC wrote:

You could garantee that Canyon or Rose won't come up with the next amazing leap forwards in bike technology.
What puts me off buying from a German mail order manufacturer is that I can't go in to a shop and see what the quality or finish is like.
I think Nukeproof have got it about right, they have got CRC running their race team which helps develop their bikes & sell through Hotlines so storage & distribution costs are low so bike costs are reasonably low.

Nukeproof is a CRC OwnBrand with some shops doing custom builds for customers or for retail.

Canyon abd rose etc may be new names in the UK, like Focus was originally.

bails87

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

Fair enough, I meant Horst, really.
But do you really think they share the brunt of driving things forwards? That's kind of what I'm getting at. Some of the big brands really are responsible for several advancements, and have the incurred costs of doing so.

I think a lot of the improvements are down to component manufacturers, rather than the people who make the frame and bolt everything onto it.

Lightweight but strong wheels, mulitple rebound damping circuits, dropper seatposts etc must cost more to develop than taking half a degree off an existing frame.

rockmonkeysc

Nukeproof is a CRC OwnBrand with some shops doing custom builds for customers or for retail.

I have just bought a full build Scalp DH pro (not custom) from my local shop.

YeehaaMcgee

bails87 wrote:

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

Fair enough, I meant Horst, really.
But do you really think they share the brunt of driving things forwards? That's kind of what I'm getting at. Some of the big brands really are responsible for several advancements, and have the incurred costs of doing so.

I think a lot of the improvements are down to component manufacturers, rather than the people who make the frame and bolt everything onto it.

Lightweight but strong wheels, mulitple rebound damping circuits, dropper seatposts etc must cost more to develop than taking half a degree off an existing frame.

But the tooling for mass manufacturing bicycle frames, hydroforming, carbon fibre production, metallurgy etc all adds up.
Bikes are not stronger and lighter than they were 10 years ago, and somebody somewhere figured out how to make that happen, then the technology trickled down to budget brands over time.

supersonic

Merida and Giant are still the big two OE manufacturers - companies like Trek, Spesh GT and many others use their facilities, but design themselves.

Spesh have pushed a lot of stuff forward, as have cannondale. But a lot of things like headset standards and say the X12 have started at smaller companies. I think both large and small have produced interesting designes and tech.

From here on we are going to see electronics pushed forward.

nicklouse

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Nukeproof is a CRC OwnBrand with some shops doing custom builds for customers or for retail.

I have just bought a full build Scalp DH pro (not custom) from my local shop.

oh any idea who owns Hotlines.

YeehaaMcgee

supersonic wrote:

Merida and Giant are still the big two OE manufacturers - companies like Trek, Spesh GT and many others use their facilities, but design themselves.

Spesh have pushed a lot of stuff forward, as have cannondale. But a lot of things like headset standards and say the X12 have started at smaller companies. I think both large and small have produced interesting designes and tech.

From here on we are going to see electronics pushed forward.

Fair enough. But would you agree, or not, that the companies developing new ideas and driving things forwards have to bear larger costs?

.blitz

nicklouse wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Nukeproof is a CRC OwnBrand with some shops doing custom builds for customers or for retail.

I have just bought a full build Scalp DH pro (not custom) from my local shop.

oh any idea who owns Hotlines.

and some people can no doubt recall the original Nukeproof brand before it became all trendy

bails87

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

bails87 wrote:

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

Fair enough, I meant Horst, really.
But do you really think they share the brunt of driving things forwards? That's kind of what I'm getting at. Some of the big brands really are responsible for several advancements, and have the incurred costs of doing so.

I think a lot of the improvements are down to component manufacturers, rather than the people who make the frame and bolt everything onto it.

Lightweight but strong wheels, mulitple rebound damping circuits, dropper seatposts etc must cost more to develop than taking half a degree off an existing frame's head angle.

But the tooling for mass manufacturing bicycle frames, hydroforming, carbon fibre production, metallurgy etc all adds up.
Bikes are not stronger and lighter than they were 10 years ago, and somebody somewhere figured out how to make that happen, then the technology trickled down to budget brands over time.

Oops, missed a bit off my post, added it in bold.

But yes, I agree with your point, of course frames have developed, but a lot of the development costs will have been borne by the component manufacturers rather than the frame rebadgerers/manufacturers. I doubt developing any new product is cheap, apart from nutlube

YeehaaMcgee

Or Orange 5s

rockmonkeysc

The Orange Five was originally designed by Fred Dibnah during his apprenticeship in a steam engine factory. It works pretty well though & is one of the very few aluminium frames manufactured in the UK.

YeehaaMcgee

I thought it was made from Yorkshire grit?

The Rookie

I was told my Vulcan would never be as light as a Rockhopper as the frame was too heavy....16" Carrera Vulcan frame, 06MY 1742g, 15" Rockhopper 06MY 1735g - really?

If I am buying a £400 Lardrock why should I put up with steel bars and a welded stem to subsidise the R&D going into a carbon framed S-works enduro?

bails87

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

Or Orange 5s

I was very tempted to mention the satsumas, but thought I'd restrain myself

YeehaaMcgee

The Beginner wrote:

I was told my Vulcan would never be as light as a Rockhopper as the frame was too heavy....16" Carrera Vulcan frame, 06MY 1742g, 15" Rockhopper 06MY 1735g - really?

If I am buying a £400 Lardrock why should I put up with steel bars and a welded stem to subsidise the R&D going into a carbon framed S-works enduro?

So you were given incorrect information. It happens all the time. Especially here on BR!