Trees - question for the legal eagles out there

First.Aspect

I live opposite a low functioning ex military pensioner. He has barbed wire around his fence. He cuts down all plant matter invading or potentially invading his air space. He has taken a dislike to two of my trees. I am confident he can't legally cut them down or have them cut down, but he's threatened to savage them somehow.

The council has told me that the worst case is that an order is issued to cut them back to 2.5m height above the boundary. That's fine - it's his view. But they also claim that there is nothing to prevent him doing it even though the overhang relates to land which neither of us own. By extension they confirm that there is nothing to stop anyone from taking similar actions in relation to any thoroughfare.

Can this be right? Is there really no offence if I take it upon myself to prune trees and bushes overhanging a random road? What is the legal position (accepting that it might be different in Scotland).

greg66_tri_v2.0

From long, long ago, this is what I remember: if X's tree overhangs Y's land, Y can cut back the overhang to any height, along the boundary line. Having done so, Y must return to X's property the material he has cut back (eg by throwing over the boundary onto X's land.

The underlying principle is that Y is entitled to clear his airspace, but the cuttings are not his property to retain.

If X's tree overhangs a third party's land, then I'd say as long as Y can get lawful access to the overhung land (consent of the third party), then Y can cut back the overhang and return the cuttings to X's land.

If X's tree overhangs public land, I'm not sure. Y isn't entitled to ownership of the airspace above public land, and I doubt Y is entitled to exercise a right of way 20 feet off the ground over public land (I'm assuming the branches don't impede the exercise of a public right of way on the ground).

Scottish land law is different to English land law (which the above summarises) though, the former being based on Roman law, IIRC. So I'm not sure how useful the English land law replies are going to be to you.

jds_1981

Devils advocate - why do you think you should be allowed to permanently intrude on public land?

thistle_

Greg66 wrote:

From long, long ago, this is what I remember: if X's tree overhangs Y's land, Y can cut back the overhang to any height, along the boundary line. Having done so, Y must return to X's property the material he has cut back (eg by throwing over the boundary onto X's land.

The underlying principle is that Y is entitled to clear his airspace, but the cuttings are not his property to retain.

If X's tree overhangs a third party's land, then I'd say as long as Y can get lawful access to the overhung land (consent of the third party), then Y can cut back the overhang and return the cuttings to X's land.

If X's tree overhangs public land, I'm not sure. Y isn't entitled to ownership of the airspace above public land, and I doubt Y is entitled to exercise a right of way 20 feet off the ground over public land (I'm assuming the branches don't impede the exercise of a public right of way on the ground).

Scottish land law is different to English land law (which the above summarises) though, the former being based on Roman law, IIRC. So I'm not sure how useful the English land law replies are going to be to you.

That's pretty much how I understand it.

Also, if X's tree overhangs a public right of way which runs over a third party's land, I believe the highway authority (usually the local council) can serve a legal notice on X requiring them to cut the tree back.

First.Aspect

This all seems sensible enough. It's a path leading between two rows of houses and the trees are part way over the end, leading to our two houses. Our access is inhibited, his isnt. Its a dead end after that so no prehostoric right of way or anything.

I don't think I have a right to keep them there. It was there when we moved in and I've asked him about it previously and he didn't have a problem. Now he has taken it upon himself to cut down a tree in common land next to my house and just leave it there. I guess it would have entered his airspace by the end of the century so it had to be done. His enthusiasm for denuding Britain has now gathered pace.

No, I've not cut back my own trees because in have no intension of removing the trees and therefore the only consequence would-be turnin his view from nice green conifer to dead inside of conifer. But if that is what he wants then fine. He'd also end up getting two other trees cut back thereby ruining several other views. But hey ho.

My only confusion is whether he's entitled to do the councils job for them, really. Clearly in any event if he came onto my land to do it, or cut back my tree too far or too high he'd commit criminal damage. But is he entitled to "police" a footpath at all? I just want to dissuade a lunatic from wielding a chain saw again.

optimisticbiker

This might help...

http://www.easthants.gov.uk/ehdc/formsf ... w12_02.pdf

t4tomo

There is aa similar dispute going on down a road near me.

Householding 1 (it might even be the OP) has a laurel bush in their garden which overhangs onto the pavement. Lots o people walk their kids to school past it and someone has trimmed it back a bit, presumably as they get soaked if its raining and you have to push past it.

Householder 1 has now put notices on said laurel, threatening all kinds of unpleasentness if (s)he catches anyone trimming his prize bush.

I tempted to prune it further for a bit of a laugh.

back to the original question, if its overhanging your property then I belive it fair game. If its obscuring someones view / light then they can get an order for you to trim them down.

But at the end of teh day its a bush / tree - notreally worth getting into a fight with your neighbours over. A little common sense goes a long way in these situations.

jds_1981

First Aspect wrote:

My only confusion is whether he's entitled to do the councils job for them, really. Clearly in any event if he came onto my land to do it, or cut back my tree too far or too high he'd commit criminal damage. But is he entitled to "police" a footpath at all? I just want to dissuade a lunatic from wielding a chain saw again.

This article would seem to indicate that it's criminal damage on 'public' land.

http://yourcardiff.walesonline.co.uk/20 ... eath-park/

“Anyone found cutting down trees and removing them from public land without permission of the council is committing an offence of criminal damage and theft. The council is working closely with the police to solve this problem and catch the culprit or culprits.

First.Aspect

It's not clear who owns the adjacent land. Possibly Wimpey, but possibly a nearby school because it's been open to the playing fields and unclaimed for decades. However I have been advised that strictly he has committed criminal damage.

Possibly he is entitled to enforce the access provided by the path. certainly the council is. I guess I advise him of the potential hazards if he doesn't use a plumb line and wait to see how stupid he is. In the mean time I just hope that I don't get any more early morning visits from a crazed ex-squaddie. The missus is somewhat alarmed in case she's alone in the house the next time.

Did I mention that he has three german shepheards?

veronese68

t4tomo wrote:

There is aa similar dispute going on down a road near me.

Householding 1 (it might even be the OP) has a laurel bush in their garden which overhangs onto the pavement. Lots o people walk their kids to school past it and someone has trimmed it back a bit, presumably as they get soaked if its raining and you have to push past it.

Householder 1 has now put notices on said laurel, threatening all kinds of unpleasentness if (s)he catches anyone trimming his prize bush.

I tempted to prune it further for a bit of a laugh.

back to the original question, if its overhanging your property then I belive it fair game. If its obscuring someones view / light then they can get an order for you to trim them down.

But at the end of teh day its a bush / tree - notreally worth getting into a fight with your neighbours over. A little common sense goes a long way in these situations.

If it is overhanging the footpath the council can instruct the homeowner to cut it back. We have a double wall around the front of our house with various plants in the gap, some of which hang down the outside of the wall. My wife got a letter from the council instructing her to trim her bush! These only stick out from the wall by 2-3", so hardly a menace. Presumably a complaint led to the letter, so make a complaint and the council should instruct the homeowner. Then watch them stew.

greg66_tri_v2.0

jds_1981 wrote:

First Aspect wrote:

My only confusion is whether he's entitled to do the councils job for them, really. Clearly in any event if he came onto my land to do it, or cut back my tree too far or too high he'd commit criminal damage. But is he entitled to "police" a footpath at all? I just want to dissuade a lunatic from wielding a chain saw again.

This article would seem to indicate that it's criminal damage on 'public' land.

http://yourcardiff.walesonline.co.uk/20 ... eath-park/

“Anyone found cutting down trees and removing them from public land without permission of the council is committing an offence of criminal damage and theft. The council is working closely with the police to solve this problem and catch the culprit or culprits.

I think I'm coming round to the view that if a tree is growing on private land and overhangs public land, then it is probably criminal damage for a member of the public to prune the overhangings. I bet somewhere there is a statutory carve out that gives power to the local authority to do this, without consequence.

First.Aspect

That's what I would have thought, master 66. However the tree warden at the council became irritated at my predilection for details and told me that the council wasn't there for legal advice. When I pointed out that this was part of his job and legal advice was on his own website and within our phone call, he became more irritated.

I have that effect on people.

He got downright angry when I pointed out that the council was empowered under the statutes we had been talking about and so it wasn't unreasonable to make enquiries in relation to their powers. :-)

tailwindhome

Am I reading this right?

The trees aren't encroaching on his property at all, but he wants to cut them back. Why?

greg66_tri_v2.0

TailWindHome wrote:

Am I reading this right?

The trees aren't encroaching on his property at all, but he wants to cut them back. Why?

Old people do this sort of thing. It's why they have a rep for being interfering nosey old busybodies.

neiltb

Old, retired, excess of time.

My neighbour gets annoyed at our tree dropping leaves on their drive. I explained that I have asked the tree not to do it but it just doesn't listen to me.

First.Aspect

Greg66 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Am I reading this right?

The trees aren't encroaching on his property at all, but he wants to cut them back. Why?

Old people do this sort of thing. It's why they have a rep for being interfering nosey old busybodies.

Mmm. has several large dogs, a VERY timid wife, a barbed wire fence, irons his shirts (probably also his socks) and excersises indoors feverishly. Have you seen Cape Fear?

My plan is to suggest cutting the trees down, but point out that we are naturists. Our houses face each other so he'd probably have to gouge his own eyes out in order to enter his own lounge.

He wants the trees gone because he probably thinks it cuts out about 2% of his light. Greg has it right.

Jay dubbleU

Don't waste your time talking to Tree Wardens - they're basically local busybodies - ask to speak to the Arboricultural Officer.
Not sure what the law is in Scotland but you're on dodgy ground if you planted trees on public land in the first place under English law

First.Aspect

The trees are on my land.
The tree he destroyed was self seeded.
Tree wardens and arborictural officers are the same thing here. The guy was helpful, I just ran up against the limit of his knowledge unite quickly. Rather than just say so he told me that the question was silly. Men, eh?

SimonAH

I would suggest immediately acquiescing and trimming the tree to his specifications and then planting something like this;



Safely away from the property line.