Stephen Roche's 'Risotto Recipe

Monty Dog

There is no doubt that the majority of champions from the late-80s onwards was 'on the juice' but it is the continued manner of their denials from some that continues to irritate. The evidence and court judgement against Roche was pretty unequivocal but he remains defiant - unlike Fignon and many others of the era he simply doesn't have the balls to fess-up. A touch of humility wouldn't go amiss - nobody's going to take his victories away, but c'mon, how long can one man's ego-trip continue?

dave_1

Monty Dog wrote:

There is no doubt that the majority of champions from the late-80s onwards was 'on the juice' but it is the continued manner of their denials from some that continues to irritate. The evidence and court judgement against Roche was pretty unequivocal but he remains defiant - unlike Fignon and many others of the era he simply doesn't have the balls to fess-up. A touch of humility wouldn't go amiss - nobody's going to take his victories away, but c'mon, how long can one man's ego-trip continue?

Fignon only owned up when he knew his time would soon be over. Nobody was going to get angry with him. Roche isn't in that situation. Why aren't you calling for Sean Kelly to show a touch of humility too?

BikingBernie

Dave_1 wrote:

Fignon only owned up when he knew his time would soon be over. Nobody was going to get angry with him. Roche isn't in that situation. Why aren't you calling for Sean Kelly to show a touch of humility too?

I would say that, compared to Roche, he has. For example:

I was very aware that when Rough Ride was published it would make life difficult for both of them, because of the implications of what I was saying. But I couldn't allow myself to not do it for that reason. I had to accept my responsibilities to the sport, and they have to accept theirs. That was the bottom line. If our friendships were going to fall on that, as it did, then that was too bad. That was too bad.

The reason I've got a good relationship with Sean is that, the only thing I expected from Sean after Rough Ride was published was ironically enough, silence. That was the best I expected from him. And he gave me that. He wasn't critical of me in any way in the media. At a time when he could've made life very difficult for me, he didn't. His response was the exact opposite of Stephen's, he made life extremelly difficult for me. That was the difference in our relationships.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interview ... ul-kimmage

T_Pucker

Timoid. wrote:

T_Pucker wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

T_Pucker wrote:

"EPO was available in the mid to late eighties. Combined with early HgH usage riders of note (and with a good team doctor) (Van Mol, Rijkaert spring to mind) and enough £££ behind them had easy access to labs/hospitals in Switzerland and Austria. This was common knowldge in the peloton of the day..."

Quote from a rider that raced with/against Roche and others in that time.

Which rider?

Do ya research mate...
and I know how much money cycling teams had back in the 80s & 90s. Enough to send nominated leaders to clinics and to bring them back with noted change in form.

You did not answer my question.

If you know so much about team's budgets, tell me the turnover of the La Vie Claire and Carrera teams in 87.

State facts or stop trolling.

You ain't stating facts either mate, so pull yer head in. You seem to know so much surely you must have been a professional cyclist? Or a team manager? As for naming riders: it's my perogative not to. And I apologise in advance if my English isn't perfect, it's my second language, coming from Belgium.

knedlicky

T_Pucker wrote:

I know how much money cycling teams had back in the 80s & 90s. Enough to send nominated leaders to clinics and to bring them back with noted change in form.

I don’t want to join in the discussion between you and Timoid, but if you have background knowledge of teams’ finances, I’d be interested to hear how the budget of a Pro Tour team is typically distributed.

I know about 2006 Astana and T-Mobile had budgets of about 12-13 million €, while FDJ were at (only) around 6 million €. Teams like Bouygues were somewhere in between, at 8-9 million €.

There was a forum discussion a few years ago called “How much do pros get paid (Salary from teams)?“ but in the end I suppose we (myself included) were just stabbing in the dark.

That discussion just guessed at salaries of riders and staff, and didn’t really get into expenses for team kit and bikes, training weeks, general logistics, offices and staff, overnight costs during tours/races, nor how much teams invest in ‘improving’ their riders (whether it be in the wind tunnel or in the clinic), the breakdown for which it would be interesting to know.

In 2006, I’d guess Astana and T-Mobile must have had 2-3 million € available for these various expenses, but I can’t imagine that these costs (not including ‘improving’ their riders) would have exceeded at most 1 million €. Which means 1-2 million € may have been budgeted to improving riders’ performances.

Or am I out in my assumptions? And was a team budget distributed any differently in the 1980s-1990s - obviously in real figures budgets and costs were then all-round less but maybe the distribution was similar?

Can you enlighten me? You don’t have to name names!

BikingBernie

Timoid. wrote:

So Bernie, why do you follow cycling at all if you cannot take any joy from any victory in living memory?

How can you 'take joy' from cycling when you know most of the performances you see are tainted by doping? Or do you prefer to bury your head in the sand and pretend that 'only a few no-hopers' dope, as people such as Roche would like you to believe?

knedlicky wrote:

In 2006, I’d guess Astana and T-Mobile must have had 2-3 million € available for these various expenses, but I can’t imagine that these costs (not including ‘improving’ their riders) would have exceeded at most 1 million €. Which means 1-2 million € may have been budgeted to improving riders’ performances. Or am I out in my assumptions?

Your figures may well be somewhere close to the truth. After all, the CAS found that Ullrich paid $106,000 to Fuentes for his services, and Landis said that his doping program cost him as much as $90,000 a year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id ... type=story

A number of sources also said that Ferrari charged his clients as much as 10-15% of their earnings, depending on how effective they wanted their 'training programs' to be.

dave_1

Timoid. wrote:

So Bernie, why do you follow cycling at all if you cannot take any joy from any victory in living memory?

Good point. He has nothing good to say about the sport EVER.

BikingBernie

Dave_1 wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

So Bernie, why do you follow cycling at all if you cannot take any joy from any victory in living memory?

Good point. He has nothing good to say about the sport EVER.

Well, here is a race that I clearly enjoyed watching, so your hypothesis is false. And it is not the only one...

viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12791264

dave_1

BikingBernie wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

So Bernie, why do you follow cycling at all if you cannot take any joy from any victory in living memory?

Good point. He has nothing good to say about the sport EVER.

Well, here is a race that I clearly enjoyed watching, so your hypothesis is false. And it is not the only one...

viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12791264

if you had enjoyed the sport and got something good out of it you wouldn't be on here muck raking, mud slinging at riders from 25 years ago.

dougzz

Dave_1 wrote:

if you had enjoyed the sport and got something good out of it you wouldn't be on here muck raking, mud slinging at riders from 25 years ago.

That doesn't seem fair, Rats started the thread and Bernie responded, not unreasonable in a forum, is it?

ratsbeyfus

Yep... just wanted to point out an interesting article. I like Roche, and I'd like to read his book. BB's post about Roche's EPO history was news to me, and interesting as well. Sorry if the thread has caused a sh!tstorm. I'd be interested to hear when anyone reads the book what their thoughts are.

esafosfina

Shame the thread 'dissolved' into sillyness... For what it's worth I think beneath the vitriol both sides of the arguement have merit. I raced with Roche, well against, from 89 onwards, so I cannot comment on what was being 'done' in 87 but I can categorically state that riders in TonTon Tapis were manipulated, so to speak. If Stephen was involved; who knows. I'd like to think not, I quite liked him, and as one of few Anglos in the peloton it was good to have him on your side. I'll report more findings after I read the book!

dave_1

esafosfina wrote:

Shame the thread 'dissolved' into sillyness... For what it's worth I think beneath the vitriol both sides of the arguement have merit. I raced with Roche, well against, from 89 onwards, so I cannot comment on what was being 'done' in 87 but I can categorically state that riders in TonTon Tapis were manipulated, so to speak. If Stephen was involved; who knows. I'd like to think not, I quite liked him, and as one of few Anglos in the peloton it was good to have him on your side. I'll report more findings after I read the book!

Interesting comment esafosfina. Laurence Roche did the TDF and finished it in 1991 for SR's team. In the UK we could not buy syringes over the counter but I found I could in France, easily, like buying headache tablets so more permissive there. We shouldn't be too hard on them. Laurent Biondi..was with them and got arrested for involvement in pot belge in 2005 having been implicated by Lauren Roux.