UK roads - why?!

Alain Quay

Sometimes it takes a foreigner to ask the bleeding obvious: I just wonder if there are any reasons - other than financial -why British roads are so goddamned pot-holey.

On my bike, I sometimes wonder:
- Are modern Council repair standards so low that crap repairs go unnoticed?
- Are the British public's expectations very low?
- Is there such thing as a 2-3 year old road in the UK without repairs?
- Is there any substance to Councils' 'wrong kind of snow/bad weather' defence ?
- Is there any substance to the financial argument or are good roads not a priority?
- Has the art of building good roads simply been forgotten i.e. did the Romans leave no instructions?
- Are the crap roads a metaphor for all that is .. blah blah complete the sentence?

In Scotland, you can cycle through the countryside admiring Victorian era bridges, tunnels, viaducts, etc,
but only in brief flashes, because of the need to dodge goddamned, flipping pot-holes. How come every other EU nation has reasonable roads, but not here?

rick_chasey

I tend to agree, but you better have your hard hat on .

daviesee

Alain Quay wrote:

Sometimes it takes a foreigner to ask the bleeding obvious: I just wonder if there are any reasons - other than financial -why British roads are so goddamned pot-holey.

On my bike, I sometimes wonder:
1 Are modern Council repair standards so low that crap repairs go unnoticed?
2 Are the British public's expectations very low?
3 Is there such thing as a 2-3 year old road in the UK without repairs?
4 Is there any substance to Councils' 'wrong kind of snow/bad weather' defence ?
5 Is there any substance to the financial argument or are good roads not a priority?
6 Has the art of building good roads simply been forgotten i.e. did the Romans leave no instructions?
7 Are the crap roads a metaphor for all that is .. blah blah complete the sentence?

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. No.
5. Yes and yes.
6. Yes. (See 5).
7. .....metaphor for this Country.

Pross

Repairs ain't done properly anymore but I don't think Britains roads are as bad as some people make out. The worst roads I've ever seen were in Belgium but outside of the main road network most countries are the same, you just don't get to see them very often.

As for weather conditions, Council's will base winter maintenance budgets and provisions on past experience. Therefore when the conditions are particularly severe such as in winter 2010 and 2009 we aren't prepared for it. The alternative is we prepare for the worst case, have huge fleets of gritters and ploughs which get used every 20 years and our Council taxes go up to pay for this. Similarly with rain, we generally don't have severe downpours and the drainage is designed for long, steady rain so when we do get a tropical style downpour the drains can't cope. We could design systems like they have in Florida with huge edge of road drainage channels but it would take up too much space for the benefits.

TheStone

Extremely poorly run country. For every £1 spent on tarmac and labour, probably £10 is wasted by the council and another £10 is spent on another poorly run consultancy who actually make the process worse.

No-one is ever accountable for anything.

Cycling is Forever

[IMHO] in terms of investment in Infrastructure, this country has gone backwards and is nowhere near other comparable countries [Sorry for the long winded sentance].
Overall UK seems to just survive day to day and usually takes the short term solution. We have been living off the investment done by the victorians and others for far too long.
While there have been high profile investment in other infrastructure, Roads have been ignored. Especially by our politicians.

rick_chasey

Pross wrote:

Repairs ain't done properly anymore but I don't think Britains roads are as bad as some people make out. The worst roads I've ever seen were in Belgium but outside of the main road network most countries are the same, you just don't get to see them very often.

Not having a gov't for 500odd days makes it difficult to sort out council funding for roads...

Heard that was why Belgian roads were falling apart.

vs

Not having a gov't for 500odd days makes it difficult to sort out council funding for roads...

Heard that was why UK roads were falling apart.

Just corrected that for you

finchy

Alain Quay wrote:

How come every other EU nation has reasonable roads, but not here?

They don't.

capt_slog

Around me they are doing the usual "spray it with car and throw a load of loose chippings all over it".

I have noticed however, that this time they don't have the barefaced cheek to call it "resurfacing", now it is "redressing", but it's still two lies for the price of one.

The last time they came down my avenue with this crap, they posted notes through all the doors about two days before. This was in the middle of summer and of course there were people who were away on hols for a fortnight, so they went around their parked cars! *

I think they daren't give any more notice than this in case we all got together and barricaded the street to stop them.

(*Oddly, this was only noticeable for about a year, and now it is not easy to spot. From this I conclude that the redressing made no difference and was not required in the first place.)

amaferanga

Sheffield recently 'won' a large pot of money over several years to fix the roads, which are in a terrible state even by UK standards. I seem to recall that the plan is for non-main roads to last 50 odd years after they get properly repaired. Can only hope that we stop using cars/buses within the next 50 years then otherwise the state of the roads now will be nothing compared to in 50 years time.

Redhog14

The roads are pretty shocking in Scotland though - particularily through the Central Belt, smooth surfaces are noteworthy. We have had 2 very severe winters though with sustained frost which breaks up the surface but all they seem to to is patch patch and patch, I would be happy with the delays and or diversions if they meant we got smooth roads for 5-6 years.

nicklouse

Alain Quay wrote:

How come every other EU nation has reasonable roads, but not here?

not been to many have you?

rolf_f

Freeze thaw is a lot of it (coupled with no maintenance and chewing gum repairs). If the weather is always either very cold or very warm, roads should last better. Repetitive alternation of the two is the worst outcome. Blame the Gulf stream.

CambsNewbie

It always struck me when in Spain and driving along a lovely smooth piece of road how many signs I'd see say funded by the EU. Maybe we can apply for some of this funding.

Also amazing the difference between counties, I do my cycling between Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire and the roads in Cambs are invariably better.

Giraffoto

To be fair, UK roads aren't that special a case of neglect in the EU - I've encountered monster potholes in most countries I've been in, and dodged round one in Milan that could probably have swallowed a whole bike. Dirt roads in Australia are an interesting challenge, too.

One useful way to avoid the worst of the potholes, crumbling edges, cracked kerbs and accumulated cr@p around my way is to stay out of designated cycle lanes . . .

y33stu

Its not just potholes that are the problem, its the rough, horribly bumpy cr*p that I hate. Potholes I can avoid mostly, but lumpy, broken top layer just makes for horrible riding. I regularly ride through Ponteland, basically where all of the footballers and millionaires live just outside Newcastle. I can only imagine the cost of council tax living there. However the roads there are some of the worst I know. just shocking.

On the flip side, I've cycled around many parts of mid west France, even the lanes there are perfectly smooth, and these places are 50+ miles from a nearby city.

beancounter

Alain Quay wrote:

other than financial

UK = broke.

bc

willhub

We're on an island, and the roads are falling a part so quickly they can't ship fresh roads from the continent to put down in place of the broken roads.

Pross

Capt Slog wrote:

Around me they are doing the usual "spray it with car and throw a load of loose chippings all over it".

I have noticed however, that this time they don't have the barefaced cheek to call it "resurfacing", now it is "redressing", but it's still two lies for the price of one.

The last time they came down my avenue with this crap, they posted notes through all the doors about two days before. This was in the middle of summer and of course there were people who were away on hols for a fortnight, so they went around their parked cars! *

I think they daren't give any more notice than this in case we all got together and barricaded the street to stop them.

(*Oddly, this was only noticeable for about a year, and now it is not easy to spot. From this I conclude that the redressing made no difference and was not required in the first place.)

Not this old chestnut again? This year's signs are correct - they are surface dressing. It is a process to increase the life span of the existing surface - the bitumen binder heats up the existing surface allowing the chips to be rolled in to provide as well as sealing the original surface to prevent water ingress. The chippings ensure the road surface has the correct skidding resistance. The process doesn't strengthen a road and isn't intended to replace a failed road surface. If done properly the technique is fine and about 75% of the UK's roads have a surface dressed finish but you don't notice it as it has compacted over time. There may be councils that use it incorrectly (which is just wasting money) and there are undoubtably contractors that cut corners - all potholes should be pre-patched before it is dressed and there should be at least 2 sweeps (plus one prior to laying). As for the lack of notice, this is probably down to the fact the procedure is very weather sensitive so it is difficult to predict exactly when an area can be done well in advance.

nevman

What gets me is the notion that throwing stones and bitumen at the surface can create a smooth,quiet,safe road?Someone correct me but Ive heard that Swiss roads are built with a minmum of a metre of tarmac to prevent freeze/thaw cracking the top layers.I wish I knew more about road building to comment here.Looking at Cav sliding down the Italian blacktop at 50-70 kph,on our roads he would have been flayed alive.

team47b

We have lovely road surfaces here, thanks for all the money

robbo2011

Just to make you guys even more pissed off, I have been riding here in Switzerland for the last year and I honestly don't remember seeing a pothole. Bliss!

msmancunia

What puzzles me, is, why aren't there any potholes on motorways? I didn't think they were resurfaced that often. Different traffic? Different surface?

roddixon

johnfinch wrote:

Alain Quay wrote:

How come every other EU nation has reasonable roads, but not here?

They don't.

+1, my commute is a prime example of crap road/bike lane surfacing and repair, and thats in the most progressive economy in the EU supposedly...

Mike67

msmancunia wrote:

What puzzles me, is, why aren't there any potholes on motorways? I didn't think they were resurfaced that often. Different traffic? Different surface?

I've seen/dodged potholes on the M1...not pleasant.

I guess though that motorways are built to withstand more load/traffic, resurfaced much more often and repaired far more quickly than other roads.

Pross

nevman wrote:

What gets me is the notion that throwing stones and bitumen at the surface can create a smooth,quiet,safe road?Someone correct me but Ive heard that Swiss roads are built with a minmum of a metre of tarmac to prevent freeze/thaw cracking the top layers.I wish I knew more about road building to comment here.Looking at Cav sliding down the Italian blacktop at 50-70 kph,on our roads he would have been flayed alive.

Who mentioned smooth and quiet? It is to prolong life of the surface by preventing water ingress and hence save money on more frequent, much more expensive resurfacing and to give the required texture and friction in the top layer to provide the necessary skidding resistance. Not sure about Switzerland but I doubt they use 1m thick bitiminous material. In the UK we use non-frost susceptible material for about 450mm below the surface but the bituminous material is rarely more than about 300mm thick, the rest is unbound stone sub-base. That 450mm figure could easily be 1m in colder countrie. It would be pointless here as frost rarely gets to even the 450mm depth, we'd just be using extra natural aggregates for the sake of it as well as having more excavated material to tip and all the costs associated with that. Most damage to roads is because minor cracks are not fixed in time and let water in. Yhere is nothing wrong with the design standards, if anything thry are excessive, but poor construction and maintenance lead to problems that become worse.

Pross

msmancunia wrote:

What puzzles me, is, why aren't there any potholes on motorways? I didn't think they were resurfaced that often. Different traffic? Different surface?

Maintenance is prioritised and motorways will have a set budget to the HA from central government. Local roads are funded from a pool of money which gets split among various departments and then gets allocated by priority depending on road so the lower down the chain you go the less chance the roads will be maintained and also the less chance damage will get fixed.

Stone Glider

For the past few years N'hants. has had a good programme of repairs and the surfaces have improved. However much of the first couple of years the Contractor was remedying the horrible patches carried out by the previous incumbent, Atco? Now the good work seems to being undone by budget cuts which is simply deferring maintenance with predictable results.

daviesee

Good coherant answers Pros but Nevman has it right with this

nevman wrote:

What gets me is the notion that throwing stones and bitumen at the surface can create a smooth,quiet,safe road?.........Looking at Cav sliding down the Italian blacktop at 50-70 kph,on our roads he would have been flayed alive.

The problem up here is only partially the potholes. What can make cycling hell is mile upon mile of rough road which was resurfaced with bitumen and chips. Within 2 years these roads are uncomfortably rough.
When a road is properly relaid (probably partially) it becomes a talking point whenever you go over that part as the difference in riding pleasure is so noticable.
Cycling for 2 weeks in Mallorca and coming back here just makes it all the more noticable.

vitesse169

Rick Chasey wrote:

Pross wrote:

Repairs ain't done properly anymore but I don't think Britains roads are as bad as some people make out. The worst roads I've ever seen were in Belgium but outside of the main road network most countries are the same, you just don't get to see them very often.

Not having a gov't for 500odd days makes it difficult to sort out council funding for roads...

Heard that was why Belgian roads were falling apart.

I tend to agree... we went to Mallorca in April and cycled the smaller country roads which were fine and well repaired.
I also go to Cyprus at least once a year and the roads there are in better shape than here - granted they don't get the freezing temperatures in the winter, but still get snow on the mountains.