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Time to put up or.....

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  • dennisndennisn Posts: 10,463
    iainf72 wrote:
    dennisn wrote:

    Just out of curiousity which of the following statements best describes what you think?
    I believe both men rode clean.
    I know both men rode clean.

    I know you live in America where changing your mind is considered a weakness. So the statement I would use is

    I believe both men rode clean (based on the evidence.)

    If someone presented me with different evidence, I would evaluate it and change my mind.

    Not sure where you got the idea that Americans can't change their minds. Me, I'm easy. All you have to do is convince me and I'm on your side. My wife, on the other hand, spells out the truth and it is therefore the truth, no questions asked or taken.

    I also have no good reason to doubt whether both men rode clean. I might clarify that with a slight nagging belief that "everyone lies".
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,372
    Keynes wrote:
    When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?
  • dennisndennisn Posts: 10,463
    dennisn wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    Name me a grand tour winner you know is clean in the last 100 years.
    Tried this in a pub a while ago and failed

    Cadel Evans
    Greg Lemond

    Just out of curiousity which of the following statements best describes what you think?
    I believe both men rode clean.
    I know both men rode clean.

    Isn't this a pointless question though, .....

    I'm sort of a person who doesn't believe that there are any dumb and / or pointless questions. There are however, some dumb and pointless answers. I only asked the question because it's really hard for me, being so skeptical, to claim that for sure, end of story, that I know this or that is truth.
  • iainf72 wrote:
    Is there anything a rider can do to prove they're not cheating?

    Can't prove a negative.

    My point really was that no one was really saying i stake my life on this rider being clean, as was mentioned earlier on the thread (page 2 i think) the question was really who you "believe" is clean. I think that the point has been made that no knows for certain.

    For me Evans, Ryder, are as free of suspicion as it gets, If Wiggins had been on any other team than Garmin when he started to show he could ride in the GC then i would be a lot more weary of him. Other than those i wouldn't say that I would put myself out there and say "these guys are clean"
    Take care of the luxuries and the necessites will take care of themselves.
  • timoid.timoid. Posts: 3,133
    Eric Caritoux, 1984 Tour of Spain.

    Lemond.

    Er....


    This ^^^

    I would add Hampsten Giro 88, Evans Tour 2011 and Basso Mark II Giro 2010.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • Ron StuartRon Stuart Posts: 1,242
    dennisn wrote:
    Ron Stuart wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    inseine wrote:
    Thing is, you've worded the question wrongly. You mean 'believe' not 'know'. We don't know if anybody was clean, or ever will, because you simply cannot prove it. You can only prove someone was doping.
    +1.... I don't believe in bigfoot, aliens, or levitation but sitting here I DO know that I don't know for sure. Believe and know are two very different things.
    "Believe the man seeking the truth. Be very wary of the one who claims to have found it". (Can't put a name to that quote)

    You guys are thinking just like Richard Dawkins and exposing mankind’s love affair with the almost instinctive desire, need almost, to believe, rather than any need for proof.

    I'm not so sure about that. I have a tremendous desire for proof of just about everything. As it stands right now I don't believe in a Bigfoot type creature. However, if someone can show me proof, that satisfies me, then I'll change my tune. Just trying to make it clear that I don't know.

    Yes, but can believing in bigfoot gain you anything? or by following one of the desirable faiths can that convince you that you have an afterlife :?: Hardly anyone believes the former but there are millions apon millions that believe the later with exactly the same amount of proof :shock:
    Humans have a huge capacity to delude themselves, some like to believe the pro racers were all on drugs, some like to think it was some, some couldn't care less and some of the more enlightened are waiting to be given some proof first. :wink:
  • dennisndennisn Posts: 10,463
    Ron Stuart wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    Ron Stuart wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    inseine wrote:
    Thing is, you've worded the question wrongly. You mean 'believe' not 'know'. We don't know if anybody was clean, or ever will, because you simply cannot prove it. You can only prove someone was doping.
    +1.... I don't believe in bigfoot, aliens, or levitation but sitting here I DO know that I don't know for sure. Believe and know are two very different things.
    "Believe the man seeking the truth. Be very wary of the one who claims to have found it". (Can't put a name to that quote)

    You guys are thinking just like Richard Dawkins and exposing mankind’s love affair with the almost instinctive desire, need almost, to believe, rather than any need for proof.

    I'm not so sure about that. I have a tremendous desire for proof of just about everything. As it stands right now I don't believe in a Bigfoot type creature. However, if someone can show me proof, that satisfies me, then I'll change my tune. Just trying to make it clear that I don't know.


    Humans have a huge capacity to delude themselves, some like to believe the pro racers were all on drugs, some like to think it was some, some couldn't care less and some of the more enlightened are waiting to be given some proof first. :wink:

    +1...... Still, how much proof is required varies greatly from person to person and many times depends on the subject.
  • disgruntledgoatdisgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    I'm disappointed this thread didn't go full Gibo.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • knedlickyknedlicky Posts: 3,097
    7317022186_c26780793d.jpg
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