My 1st Cat 4 hill today

team47b

I 'heard' that the categories were measured originally using a Citoen 2cv.

Cat 4 was a hill you could drive a 2cv up in fourth gear, cat 3 in third gear, cat 2 second gear and Cat one you had to drive up in first gear!

proto

I've got a 2CV in the garage. I'll get it out and report back.

y33stu

GiantMike wrote:

THIS is a climb.

I did this way back before Strava was invented, otherwise I would have tried harder. 5221ft straight up, part of a 111 mile ride with 10,000ft of climbing in California, in September.

That looks brutal. And you had to ride past an Elephant Knob.

dodgy

Pross wrote:

dodgy wrote:

I am confident that if the TdeF ever took in Wrynose with Hardknott immediately after, that one or the other, or both would get Cat 1.

I bet it wouldn't but we'll never get a chance to find out.

Probably right. But anecdotally, most guys I know that have ridden with me up Col de Joux Plane (a HC climb) found that much more manageable than Wrynose and Hardknot. Most alpine climbs are at a consistent gradient (I did say 'most'). Problem is that the climb categorisation system doesn't take into account the special kind of hurt that can be dished out by some Lakeland climbs.

Pross

dodgy wrote:

Pross wrote:

dodgy wrote:

I am confident that if the TdeF ever took in Wrynose with Hardknott immediately after, that one or the other, or both would get Cat 1.

I bet it wouldn't but we'll never get a chance to find out.

Probably right. But anecdotally, most guys I know that have ridden with me up Col de Joux Plane (a HC climb) found that much more manageable than Wrynose and Hardknot. Most alpine climbs are at a consistent gradient (I did say 'most'). Problem is that the climb categorisation system doesn't take into account the special kind of hurt that can be dished out by some Lakeland climbs.

I think the key difference here is riding and racing. The long, steady Alpine climbs are easier to ride as you can drop the pace to a manageable level whereas something like Hardknott or the Bwlch y Groes takes a full effort for us mere mortals to just get up. However, with the pros they are racing and long and steady just means they can ride at the same effort as (relatively) short and steep - they just go faster.

buzzwold

Pross wrote:

buzzwold wrote:

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

buzzwold wrote:

Hi

Anyone ridden the hill out of Martley in Worcestershire towards Tenbury Wells, or the climb out of the Teme Valley after that or the climb out of Bromyard on the A44. There's another toughie just after Tenbury heading towards Leominster. I'd love to know what the categories are for these as I managed two out of 4 (the climb out of the Teme valley, the B4204, was as steep and longer than Ankerdine Hill and I got half way before I thought my heart was going to give in) without stopping on a 50 miler at the weekend. Yes, going up is good but give me rolling stuff with short kickers as opposed to mammoth grinds.

I should have known the hill was steep when I heard cars changing down.

You can look them up on strava and it will give them a category if they fit the criteria.

Ta. I've tried that but I failed the technology test. I'll try again, but otherwise I'll do simple gradient calc.

Heading west out of Bromyard it shows a 4th cat climb "Green Lane climb" which is 1.2 miles at 4.9%. Going out of Martley towards Tenbury there is The Noak, 0.3 miles at 8% (uncategorised) and then Clifton Bank rises from the Teme towards Tenbury (1.6 miles at 6.1% 4th cat). Ankerdine by comparison is 0.6 miles at 11.5% (still only a 4th cat though).

Pross. Thanks for this. Looking a the map I took on Clifton Bank and using map and recent experience some of the lower sections are more than 6.1%, which is what did for me, that and a slipping gear. I climbed out of Bromyard heading east, but I reckon the Cat 4 will still hold good. More training required, methinks

nickel

Pross wrote:

dodgy wrote:

Pross wrote:

dodgy wrote:

I am confident that if the TdeF ever took in Wrynose with Hardknott immediately after, that one or the other, or both would get Cat 1.

I bet it wouldn't but we'll never get a chance to find out.

Probably right. But anecdotally, most guys I know that have ridden with me up Col de Joux Plane (a HC climb) found that much more manageable than Wrynose and Hardknot. Most alpine climbs are at a consistent gradient (I did say 'most'). Problem is that the climb categorisation system doesn't take into account the special kind of hurt that can be dished out by some Lakeland climbs.

I think the key difference here is riding and racing. The long, steady Alpine climbs are easier to ride as you can drop the pace to a manageable level whereas something like Hardknott or the Bwlch y Groes takes a full effort for us mere mortals to just get up. However, with the pros they are racing and long and steady just means they can ride at the same effort as (relatively) short and steep - they just go faster.

I really wished they used some of the really brutal climbs in the Tour of Britain, I read that Bwlch y Groes was used in the milk race but the ToB never seems to take on the hardest climbs of whatever area they're in. E.g. taking the Porlock Toll road rather than Porlock Hill itself. I mean last year Gun Hill was a 'Cat 1' climb, having checked it out on strava it doesn't look too hard at all.

Pross

Unfortunately, with the area required for crowds and the size of the race convoy, I don't think the likes of the Bwlch y Groes or Devil's Staircase are viable anymore. You would have to have a European style full road closure from the previous night to make it safe. I watched the ToB go up Caerphilly Mountain last year and I'm surprised they have been allowed back with the thoughtless parking by spectators that blocked the main A469 stopping buses getting past. The big rural climbs would be a health and safety nightmare. That said, there are plenty of climbs on decent standard rural A roads which could be used. The biggest example I can think of is the Storey Arms climb, which is a long boring big ring drag (albeit with stunning scenery) and on the main north-south road in Wales so it causes a lot of disruption whilst a minor detour could take them over a 3 mile 6% climb (Talgarth to Pengenffordd) and then up over Llangynidr Mountain or The Tumble both of which would be far better climbs for spectators. I'm sure there's similar scenarios in other areas but I guess there are reasons for the choices.

nickel

That's a good point, I think I was getting a bit carried away with some wishful thinking! I just think it would be quite cool/depressing to see you fast those guys can ride up climbs that use mere mortals just hope we can ride up without putting a foot down.

GiantMike

Nickel wrote:

I mean last year Gun Hill was a 'Cat 1' climb, having checked it out on strava it doesn't look too hard at all.

I've ridden it. It's not that hard at all, but I wouldn't want to race up it though. I know that's where I'd get dropped.

Alpine climbs are uncomfortable for a long period of time. UK climbs can be hard and steep, but they're usually quite short in comparison. Blakey Bank and Rosedale Chimney spring to mind; steep enough that I needed a 34/26 combo to get up them. When I can do either of them with a 39/26 I'll know I've got to my target power-to-weight ratio.

rolf_f

Pross wrote:

dodgy wrote:

I am confident that if the TdeF ever took in Wrynose with Hardknott immediately after, that one or the other, or both would get Cat 1.

I bet it wouldn't but we'll never get a chance to find out. The 1st cat climbs are almost all Pyrennean or Alpine monsters (the only exceptions I can think of are the Cote de la Croix-Neuve and Ballon D'Alsace). You could argue that Hardknott is as deserving to be a 1st cat as Croix-Neuve 2km at 15% v 3.3km at 9.5% but the Croix-Neuve is a higher climb and is arguably classified too highly when you look at other 1st cats in the Tour. The Ballon is 13km long and finishes at nearly 1200m so isn't really comparable to any British climb. Hardknott may be one of the select few that would make 2nd cat in the UK.

By comparison, the Col de Stockeu was used in 2010 and was a 3rd category climb. At 2.4km and 9.5% I would suggest it is similar to the toughest hills England and Wales have to offer.

Well, I admit to never having done an alpine climb but I have ridden up Mount Evans in Colorado. That's about 13 miles from where we started and reaches over 14,000 feet. TBH, it was easy compared to Hardknott though obviously took far longer. But then again, there are plenty of MTB routes that would make Hardknott seem gentle so it's really down to what you want to categorise and the likes of Hardknott are not what road races tend to go for.

GiantMike wrote:

Nickel wrote:

I mean last year Gun Hill was a 'Cat 1' climb, having checked it out on strava it doesn't look too hard at all.

I've ridden it. It's not that hard at all, but I wouldn't want to race up it though. I know that's where I'd get dropped.

Me too - it wouldn't stand out in any decent ride around the hillier parts of Yorkshire.

vs

Rolf F wrote:

Well, I admit to never having done an alpine climb but I have ridden up Mount Evans in Colorado. That's about 13 miles from where we started and reaches over 14,000 feet. TBH, it was easy compared to Hardknott though obviously took far longer.

I guess you rode it from Echo Lake. I've ridden it from Idaho Springs which is 28 miles at 4% ish. Not the hardest climb I've done by far (Porlock Hill is harder TBH) but my god it's high and the lack of oxygen doesn't help any. A 7000 feet climb to, as you say, 14,000 feet.

I've got a poster somewhere which illustrates that the top of Alpe d'huez is 1000 feet below the starting point; an amazing climbing experience.