Just how fit are these guys?

okgo

Being in a bunch of 50 and being in a bunch of 80 feels no different, you're still surrounded by bikes. None of the circuits I've done have been dangerous, but you could easily kill yourself if you got it wrong, tree/railings/ car on other side of the road, whatever.

If someone can go from 4th cat to elite in 12 months then there isn't that much skill involved, its about being fitter, and faster/stronger than other riders. Try going from total football/skateboard/tennis ametuer to semi pro in a year, it won't happen.

ilovebigwig

Singleton wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I can't think of any other mainstream sport with the level of competitiveness that cycling has that tests endurance so extremely.

That may very well be true and if the OP had said that he is amazed at the unique levels of endurance of pro cyclists then more than half of the posts would never have happened.

But that wasn't the original post - it was about fitness and so there's been a lot of debate about what that means.

Agreed. Also, whilst reading an Olympic Guide this morning, I found myself pretty impressed by the level of fitness in the ladies field hockey competition.

rick_chasey

Singleton wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I can't think of any other mainstream sport with the level of competitiveness that cycling has that tests endurance so extremely.

That may very well be true and if the OP had said that he is amazed at the unique levels of endurance of pro cyclists then more than half of the posts would never have happened.

But that wasn't the original post - it was about fitness and so there's been a lot of debate about what that means.

One relates to the other though. Since the sports tests endurance like no other, fitness is absolutely key.

A football player can, say, join as a substitute for the last 10 minutes since they are 'not quite fit enough' and still have an impact on the game. (by say, scoring a goal).

In cycling that is absolutely not possible.

okgo

What like Cav sitting in all day because he'd get dropped otherwise, then coming out in the last 30 secs to bag a sprint?

ilovebigwig

Rick Chasey wrote:

Point is, I can't think of any other mainstream sport with the level of competitiveness that cycling has that tests endurance so extremely.

Racing between 3-7 hours, with occasional one hour TT efforts over 3 weeks is unprecedented in pretty much every sport.

Even 1 weeks, which in cycling terms are small, are a lot. The only sport that comes close is the once a year Tour de Ski.

The one day races are still a 6-7hr aerobic effort.

No-one disputing the other skills you need in cycling, but that's what sets it apart from other sports.

I understand the points made here, but other sports are not saying "oh we can't be bothered to compete every day", it is just impossible to. You could not play an international rugby test match every day for three weeks, but I would argue that playing number 6 or 7 every 5-6 days for over a month in a World Cup is as tough as it gets.

rick_chasey

ilovebigwig wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Point is, I can't think of any other mainstream sport with the level of competitiveness that cycling has that tests endurance so extremely.

Racing between 3-7 hours, with occasional one hour TT efforts over 3 weeks is unprecedented in pretty much every sport.

Even 1 weeks, which in cycling terms are small, are a lot. The only sport that comes close is the once a year Tour de Ski.

The one day races are still a 6-7hr aerobic effort.

No-one disputing the other skills you need in cycling, but that's what sets it apart from other sports.

I understand the points made here, but other sports are not saying "oh we can't be bothered to compete every day", it is just impossible to. You could not play an international rugby test match every day for three weeks, but I would argue that playing number 6 or 7 every 5-6 days for over a month in a World Cup is as tough as it gets.

For sure, but if we're talking pure aerobic endurance, no sport tests it more.

With running, rugby, most weight bearing sports generally, there are limiting factors beyond aerobic endurance.

For sure, the bike allows for easy recovery - all you need to do is stop pedalling - but that then enables a much more rigorous and heavy emphasis placed on aerobic endurance.

shockedsoshocked

BikingBernie wrote:

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

Get 11 skilled lazy bastards against 11 lads with incredible work rate who can run about for a full 90 minutes and I know who i'd put my money on. Football like most sports can be broken down into individual components required to be good at it.

I recall a study of the various physical activities undertaken during professional football which was intended to identify which components needed working on. The big surprise was that the players spent more time walking slowly backwards than they did running forwards at full pace.

These days they also spend a considerable amount of time kicking each other and racially abusing opponents as well, but that's another argument

amaferanga

okgo wrote:

Being in a bunch of 50 and being in a bunch of 80 feels no different, you're still surrounded by bikes. None of the circuits I've done have been dangerous, but you could easily kill yourself if you got it wrong, tree/railings/ car on other side of the road, whatever.

If someone can go from 4th cat to elite in 12 months then there isn't that much skill involved, its about being fitter, and faster/stronger than other riders. Try going from total football/skateboard/tennis ametuer to semi pro in a year, it won't happen.

How many people do you know that have gone from 4th Cat to Elite in 12 months? Names please.

shockedsoshocked

amaferanga wrote:

okgo wrote:

Being in a bunch of 50 and being in a bunch of 80 feels no different, you're still surrounded by bikes. None of the circuits I've done have been dangerous, but you could easily kill yourself if you got it wrong, tree/railings/ car on other side of the road, whatever.

If someone can go from 4th cat to elite in 12 months then there isn't that much skill involved, its about being fitter, and faster/stronger than other riders. Try going from total football/skateboard/tennis ametuer to semi pro in a year, it won't happen.

How many people do you know that have gone from 4th Cat to Elite in 12 months? Names please.

http://herbalifeleisurelakesbikes.com/team/tom-bustard/

contadorbeef

amaferanga wrote:

okgo wrote:

Being in a bunch of 50 and being in a bunch of 80 feels no different, you're still surrounded by bikes. None of the circuits I've done have been dangerous, but you could easily kill yourself if you got it wrong, tree/railings/ car on other side of the road, whatever.

If someone can go from 4th cat to elite in 12 months then there isn't that much skill involved, its about being fitter, and faster/stronger than other riders. Try going from total football/skateboard/tennis ametuer to semi pro in a year, it won't happen.

How many people do you know that have gone from 4th Cat to Elite in 12 months? Names please.

Ian Wright, Vinny Jones to name a few famous ones, both semi pros/working normal day jobs when spotted, given the chance at pro football.

cougie

That bloke from the Comic last week ? I forget his name though - sorry.

tailwindhome

^Donal Harrington


The Men of the Rás: “They were absolutely out of it; they could hardly even look up




http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news ... n-look-up/

amaferanga

contadorbeef wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

okgo wrote:

Being in a bunch of 50 and being in a bunch of 80 feels no different, you're still surrounded by bikes. None of the circuits I've done have been dangerous, but you could easily kill yourself if you got it wrong, tree/railings/ car on other side of the road, whatever.

If someone can go from 4th cat to elite in 12 months then there isn't that much skill involved, its about being fitter, and faster/stronger than other riders. Try going from total football/skateboard/tennis ametuer to semi pro in a year, it won't happen.

How many people do you know that have gone from 4th Cat to Elite in 12 months? Names please.

Ian Wright, Vinny Jones to name a few famous ones, both semi pros/working normal day jobs when spotted, given the chance at pro football.

They're footballers, not cyclists.

amaferanga

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

okgo wrote:

Being in a bunch of 50 and being in a bunch of 80 feels no different, you're still surrounded by bikes. None of the circuits I've done have been dangerous, but you could easily kill yourself if you got it wrong, tree/railings/ car on other side of the road, whatever.

If someone can go from 4th cat to elite in 12 months then there isn't that much skill involved, its about being fitter, and faster/stronger than other riders. Try going from total football/skateboard/tennis ametuer to semi pro in a year, it won't happen.

How many people do you know that have gone from 4th Cat to Elite in 12 months? Names please.

http://herbalifeleisurelakesbikes.com/team/tom-bustard/

BC rankings page seems to be borked at the moment, but I'll take your word for it that he went from 4th Cat to Elite in a season. Clearly a naturally gifted rider. Not one of these BMX or MTB racers turned road though is he?

EDIT: He was a triathlete

EDIT EDIT: Is he riding the tour series? One of the riders getting lapped? I'm not trying to knock the guy cos he's better than I'll ever be, but he looks to be struggling on technical circuits against the experienced Elites when I bet his numbers are comparable. Just trying to reinforce the point that there's more to it than just being physically gifted....

ilovebigwig

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

Get 11 skilled lazy bastards against 11 lads with incredible work rate who can run about for a full 90 minutes and I know who i'd put my money on. Football like most sports can be broken down into individual components required to be good at it.

I recall a study of the various physical activities undertaken during professional football which was intended to identify which components needed working on. The big surprise was that the players spent more time walking slowly backwards than they did running forwards at full pace.

These days they also spend a considerable amount of time kicking each other and racially abusing opponents as well, but that's another argument

Too busy racially abusing people to really get into the PEDs...

ilovebigwig

contadorbeef wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

okgo wrote:

Being in a bunch of 50 and being in a bunch of 80 feels no different, you're still surrounded by bikes. None of the circuits I've done have been dangerous, but you could easily kill yourself if you got it wrong, tree/railings/ car on other side of the road, whatever.

If someone can go from 4th cat to elite in 12 months then there isn't that much skill involved, its about being fitter, and faster/stronger than other riders. Try going from total football/skateboard/tennis ametuer to semi pro in a year, it won't happen.

How many people do you know that have gone from 4th Cat to Elite in 12 months? Names please.

Ian Wright, Vinny Jones to name a few famous ones, both semi pros/working normal day jobs when spotted, given the chance at pro football.

Both over 20 years ago, one nearer 25...

shockedsoshocked

amaferanga wrote:

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

okgo wrote:

Being in a bunch of 50 and being in a bunch of 80 feels no different, you're still surrounded by bikes. None of the circuits I've done have been dangerous, but you could easily kill yourself if you got it wrong, tree/railings/ car on other side of the road, whatever.

If someone can go from 4th cat to elite in 12 months then there isn't that much skill involved, its about being fitter, and faster/stronger than other riders. Try going from total football/skateboard/tennis ametuer to semi pro in a year, it won't happen.

How many people do you know that have gone from 4th Cat to Elite in 12 months? Names please.

http://herbalifeleisurelakesbikes.com/team/tom-bustard/

BC rankings page seems to be borked at the moment, but I'll take your word for it that he went from 4th Cat to Elite in a season. Clearly a naturally gifted rider. Not one of these BMX or MTB racers turned road though is he?

EDIT: He was a triathlete

EDIT EDIT: Is he riding the tour series? One of the riders getting lapped? I'm not trying to knock the guy cos he's better than I'll ever be, but he looks to be struggling on technical circuits against the experienced Elites when I bet his numbers are comparable. Just trying to reinforce the point that there's more to it than just being physically gifted....

He can't go round corners. But he's as strong as an ox.

cougie

amaferanga wrote:

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

okgo wrote:

Being in a bunch of 50 and being in a bunch of 80 feels no different, you're still surrounded by bikes. None of the circuits I've done have been dangerous, but you could easily kill yourself if you got it wrong, tree/railings/ car on other side of the road, whatever.

If someone can go from 4th cat to elite in 12 months then there isn't that much skill involved, its about being fitter, and faster/stronger than other riders. Try going from total football/skateboard/tennis ametuer to semi pro in a year, it won't happen.

How many people do you know that have gone from 4th Cat to Elite in 12 months? Names please.

http://herbalifeleisurelakesbikes.com/team/tom-bustard/

BC rankings page seems to be borked at the moment, but I'll take your word for it that he went from 4th Cat to Elite in a season. Clearly a naturally gifted rider. Not one of these BMX or MTB racers turned road though is he?

EDIT: He was a triathlete

EDIT EDIT: Is he riding the tour series? One of the riders getting lapped? I'm not trying to knock the guy cos he's better than I'll ever be, but he looks to be struggling on technical circuits against the experienced Elites when I bet his numbers are comparable. Just trying to reinforce the point that there's more to it than just being physically gifted....

Blimey a triathlete trying road racing - I remember some young American dude who was gonna be the best thing since sliced bread - he tried bunch racing and got battered and dropped in his first races. He did turn out to be OK in the end....

okgo

The point was road cycling isn't that skilled, Nick Baker (Zappi's) will be an elite soon and has been riding 5 months and a bit. You would never find someone who hasn't played football and have them playing for a championship team within 6 months, out of the question.

Not knocking the sport, but there isn't much skill in it, lets be honest ffs.

bigmat

ilovebigwig wrote:

contadorbeef wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

okgo wrote:

Being in a bunch of 50 and being in a bunch of 80 feels no different, you're still surrounded by bikes. None of the circuits I've done have been dangerous, but you could easily kill yourself if you got it wrong, tree/railings/ car on other side of the road, whatever.

If someone can go from 4th cat to elite in 12 months then there isn't that much skill involved, its about being fitter, and faster/stronger than other riders. Try going from total football/skateboard/tennis ametuer to semi pro in a year, it won't happen.

How many people do you know that have gone from 4th Cat to Elite in 12 months? Names please.

Ian Wright, Vinny Jones to name a few famous ones, both semi pros/working normal day jobs when spotted, given the chance at pro football.

Both over 20 years ago, one nearer 25...

Gareth McCleary, non league to premier league (next season with Reading) in about 3 seasons.

lostboysaint

ilovebigwig wrote:

contadorbeef wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

okgo wrote:

Being in a bunch of 50 and being in a bunch of 80 feels no different, you're still surrounded by bikes. None of the circuits I've done have been dangerous, but you could easily kill yourself if you got it wrong, tree/railings/ car on other side of the road, whatever.

If someone can go from 4th cat to elite in 12 months then there isn't that much skill involved, its about being fitter, and faster/stronger than other riders. Try going from total football/skateboard/tennis ametuer to semi pro in a year, it won't happen.

How many people do you know that have gone from 4th Cat to Elite in 12 months? Names please.

Ian Wright, Vinny Jones to name a few famous ones, both semi pros/working normal day jobs when spotted, given the chance at pro football.

Both over 20 years ago, one nearer 25...

Chris Smalling.

tailwindhome

Er. I'd be pretty sure any footballers being named have probably been playing since early primary school

No_Ta_Doctor

TailWindHome wrote:

Er. I'd be pretty sure any footballers being named have probably been playing since early primary school

Typically the selection pressures are so fierce in elite youth football that very many talented kids are forced out by one means or another. Late developers, for instance, will have to be sublimely gifted to make an impact playing with kids a lot bigger than them (Oxlaide-Chamberlain very nearly lost his place at the Saints because of this). A momentary lapse of concentration at the onset of puberty and the discovery of girls, alcohol etc. will also see off a huge portion. Many of these kids will take the game up again later, at lower levels, and some may even be "discovered" by bigger clubs because of it.

Richj

found this quite interesting http://home.trainingpeaks.com/races/tea ... rance.aspx from last years tour. With the comments about footballers "walking around the pitch" on some stages Flecha was freewheeling for over 10% of a stage and spending time n recovery or endurance mode. I know no one is suggesting it but they don't race hell for leather for 3 weeks, some days are rest days on the bike. Because of this they are able to race for 3 weeks day in day out.

I have a lot of respect for Pro cyclists, they are amazingly fit athletes but just cos they race for 3 weeks doesn't make them necessarily fitter than other sportsman.

tailwindhome

^
I'm not sure that there are any other sports which employ the physics of drafting too.

No_Ta_Doctor

TailWindHome wrote:

^
I'm not sure that there are any other sports which employ the physics of drafting too.

Most motor sports, but that's a bit different :-)

afx237vi

No tA Doctor wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

^
I'm not sure that there are any other sports which employ the physics of drafting too.

Most motor sports, but that's a bit different :-)

Horse racing too... but that's also a bit different.

(As an aside: national hunt jockeys must match pro cyclists for toughness, even if the levels of fitness are not really comparable.)

tailwindhome

Motor Sport - Yeah I'm aware they draft and suppose the principle of conserving energy is the same but it's not an endurance sport

Horse Racing - I had never thought of drafting in Horse Racing and I suppose there must be a similar effect however it's not quite the same either - there's no team work involved, the leader doesn't get towed along for 90%* of the race by other participants willing to share the work load...

*90% being a made up stat.

tailwindhome

No tA Doctor wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Er. I'd be pretty sure any footballers being named have probably been playing since early primary school

Typically the selection pressures are so fierce in elite youth football that very many talented kids are forced out by one means or another. Late developers, for instance, will have to be sublimely gifted to make an impact playing with kids a lot bigger than them (Oxlaide-Chamberlain very nearly lost his place at the Saints because of this). A momentary lapse of concentration at the onset of puberty and the discovery of girls, alcohol etc. will also see off a huge portion. Many of these kids will take the game up again later, at lower levels, and some may even be "discovered" by bigger clubs because of it.

Of course. My point was that they didn't just decide one day to give football a go and develope from novice to pro in a short space of time.

At a tangent I'm always suprised that the resources with most big clubs put into sourcing talent that players can be 'missed'

James McClean is another example Derry City in the League of Ireland to the Premiership and Euro 2012 in 1 season...

No_Ta_Doctor

TailWindHome wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Er. I'd be pretty sure any footballers being named have probably been playing since early primary school

Typically the selection pressures are so fierce in elite youth football that very many talented kids are forced out by one means or another. Late developers, for instance, will have to be sublimely gifted to make an impact playing with kids a lot bigger than them (Oxlaide-Chamberlain very nearly lost his place at the Saints because of this). A momentary lapse of concentration at the onset of puberty and the discovery of girls, alcohol etc. will also see off a huge portion. Many of these kids will take the game up again later, at lower levels, and some may even be "discovered" by bigger clubs because of it.

Of course. My point was that they didn't just decide one day to give football a go and develope from novice to pro in a short space of time.

At a tangent I'm always suprised that the resources with most big clubs put into sourcing talent that players can be 'missed'

James McClean is another example Derry City in the League of Ireland to the Premiership and Euro 2012 in 1 season...

Football clubs have a very wide net and a huge discard. It's utterly ruthless. There's little attention to potential - mostly potential is just extrapolated from what a kid can do already. They might have a peek at a kids genetics by checking out his parents.




Marathon runners aiming for a world record attempt are regularly paced for at least half the race by quicker lower distance runners. I have no idea if they're gaining a drafting benefit or just being set into a rhythm that will hopefully give them a quick time at a steady maintainable pace.