Argh Colnago C59 Sloping or standard Geometry?

Velonutter
Velonutter Posts: 2,437
edited February 2014 in Road buying advice
I'm so close to deciding on my new frame (yep looks like I have been messed around on that EPS :? ) but I can't help liking the look of the semi sloping top tube.

c59_150.jpg

As a traditionalist I should really go for a standard top tube, but there is something about the semi sloping top tube that appeals?

I normally ride a 54 traditional frame with a 54/55 top tube, so my dilemma is do I buy a traditional or a sloping.....decisions, decisions ???

The Geometry chart is on the following page:- -

http://www.colnago.com/c59-anniversary/

I'm 5ft 10 with a 31 inside leg, not as flexible as some of the spring chickens around but at 52 am okish :oops:

So what would the benefits be of going for a sloping vs traditional?

And if I did go for a sloping would I be better going for a 50s and use a longer stem or a 52s and use a shorter stem, taking on board that at my age I will be shrinking rather than growing?

I can't go for a bike fit as there is a chance that the frame will be purchased abroad and I have to give the dimensions before hand, any advice would be welcome.

BTW I haven't discounted that I should have a bike fit at Adrian Timmis in Burton and brief him on my plans.

Thanks in anticipation 8)
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Comments

  • giropaul
    giropaul Posts: 414
    The main difference between the 54 and the 50s is the head tube height. I would check your bar height and find out which matches best.

    Never a bad idea to go and see Ada.
  • Velonutter
    Velonutter Posts: 2,437
    giropaul wrote:
    The main difference between the 54 and the 50s is the head tube height. I would check your bar height and find out which matches best.

    Never a bad idea to go and see Ada.

    Thanks Paul,

    I missed that, so as there is a 2cm difference (143mm vs 145mm)the semi sloping maybe more comfortable, but the 54 could be made similar with spacers?
  • Lookyhere
    Lookyhere Posts: 987
    Sloping as you ll always being wondering "what if?" otherwise :) are there any benefits to either frame other than looks and standover height? its a very moderate slope in any case!

    Look more carefully at the chart :lol:
    the headtube length difference btwn the 50s and the trad 54 - its 2mm 143 v 145 and the STA are the same so reach will be similar, the 54 trad almost matches the 50s exactly.
    but there are much larger differences against the 50s v 52s - 2cm longer tt and 2cm in the ht length and STA differences which will alter the reach again.

    You can only go on what suits you now, not what you might be in few yrs time?

    At £3k a frame, perhaps a bikefit (if you can get a good one) is the way to go?
  • Velonutter
    Velonutter Posts: 2,437
    Lookyhere wrote:
    Sloping as you ll always being wondering "what if?" otherwise :) are there any benefits to either frame other than looks and standover height? its a very moderate slope in any case!

    Look more carefully at the chart :lol:
    the headtube length difference btwn the 50s and the trad 54 - its 2mm 143 v 145 and the STA are the same so reach will be similar, the 54 trad almost matches the 50s exactly.
    but there are much larger differences against the 50s v 52s - 2cm longer tt and 2cm in the ht length and STA differences which will alter the reach again.

    You can only go on what suits you now, not what you might be in few yrs time?

    At £3k a frame, perhaps a bikefit (if you can get a good one) is the way to go?

    Thanks for the info much appreciated, I've already emailed Adrian and hopefully will sort a bike fit out shortly.

    Yep and apologises in my haste I put 2cm not 2mm's :roll: :mrgreen:
  • MattC59
    MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    When there are people out there buying C59s, I don't feel so bad about my somewhat overbudget Enigma :lol:
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • nathancom
    nathancom Posts: 1,567
    MattC59 wrote:
    When there are people out there buying C59s, I don't feel so bad about my somewhat overbudget Enigma :lol:
    You just have to get on the Enigma and you stop feeling bad about it. :)
  • kangarouge
    kangarouge Posts: 210
    That is one seriously nice bike. Do you have to buy the muscles to go with it as extras?
  • Rich.H
    Rich.H Posts: 443
    I am just under 5ft 10 with a 32 inch in seam and faced a similar situation to you when i bought my C59. I was set on the sloping geometry and could probably fit on either the 50s or 52s and went with the 52s in the end. My fit is as follows;

    BB to saddle top 740mm
    Saddle set back 66mm (Fizik Antares)
    Saddle (top) to bar (centre) drop 81mm
    Saddle tip to bar centre 551mm (120mm stem)

    With the above set up, i use the small headset top cap(10mm?) and 7.5mm of spacers

    Hope this helps?

    I see that you are in South Staffs? I live between Derby and Burton so if you wanted to take a look at mine let me know

    Rich

    P.S. I can definitely recommend Adrian for a bike fit
  • itsnotarace
    itsnotarace Posts: 518
    Velonutter wrote:
    So what would the benefits be of going for a sloping vs traditional?

    Basically it boils down to having more seatpost showing on the sloping, and less on the traditional. Given your inseam you might be better off on the sloping for standover but I think the traditional looks way better. YMMV
  • glasgowbhoy
    glasgowbhoy Posts: 1,341
    Just out of interest where are you looking to buy the frame and what kind of savings on UK price can be had?
  • kfinlay
    kfinlay Posts: 763
    FWIW I'm 5'9", have a 30.5" inside leg, size 9 feet and not the most flexible person either (in my 40s age wise)
    I've got a 50s EPS and it's a great fit with a 90mm stem. I don't have a lot of seat post showing maybe about 11cm or so, if my frame had a standard top tube then there would hardly be any seat post showing. Hope this helps a little.
    Kev

    Summer Bike: Colnago C60
    Winter Bike: Vitus Alios
    MTB: 1997 GT Karakorum
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    I am Italian and would not buy a sloping Colnago...
    As a matter of facts I would only buy a Master and with a precisa steel fork, but that's a different pair of hands...
    left the forum March 2023
  • Velonutter
    Velonutter Posts: 2,437
    MattC59 : - Nothing wrong with your Enigma, it's a great frame. I'm having to do do a bit of buying and selling to pay for this and also my mother passed away last year so a little bit of money is coming from her estate. It will let me ride something and keep forever knowing that she had helped me buy it.

    Kangarouge: - Of course I have the muscles to go with it, unfortunately in the wrong places, so i need every assistance to try and hang on :mrgreen:

    Rick H. Thanks for the info, your inside seam in over an inch longer than me so i can see why the 52s is more suited, my middle of the BB to the top of the saddle is just a tiny fraction under 730mm.

    I'm currently using a 100mm stem with a virtual 54.5cm top tube on my sloping LOOK 585.

    I'm figuring that the 50s will be better for me.

    Thanks for the offer to look at yours, perhaps we can meet up at Fradley sometime, as I regularly ride out training that way?

    Itsnotarace: - Yep can see where your coming from, on the extreme sloping frames I would agree, but on the slightly sloping like this C59 and my Look they don't look too bad.

    Glasgowbhoy: - I have an Italian Friend who has a contact in Italy, from the prices quoted and with the strength of the Pound vs. the Euro the saving was considerable :mrgreen:

    Kfinlay,: - Sound like the 50s is the one I need.

    ugo.santalucia : - I know, it is almost like putting SRAM or Shim... on an Italian bike :roll: , but that's why I'm chatting here :mrgreen: I have to admit that I would love a Master in Saronni Red....gorgeous, but that will be another project when I can do it justice.
  • Mccaria
    Mccaria Posts: 869
    Velonutter,

    I was brought up on horizontal top tube bikes, but when ordering my C59 I went for a sloping top tube. I have a couple of frames with horizontal top tubes, but these days I much prefer the look of a gently sloping top tube. I have the 56s frame and the aesthetics work for me. Also I put Dura-ace on it as well, because I like it !
  • Velonutter
    Velonutter Posts: 2,437
    Mccaria wrote:
    Velonutter,

    I was brought up on horizontal top tube bikes, but when ordering my C59 I went for a sloping top tube. I have a couple of frames with horizontal top tubes, but these days I much prefer the look of a gently sloping top tube. I have the 56s frame and the aesthetics work for me. Also I put Dura-ace on it as well, because I like it !

    Hmm, if you are riding a 56s then you're a big lad, remind me not to take the pish out of you for using Shim....see I can't even lower my standards to say the word :mrgreen:

    Seriously though, I don't mind the slightly sloping, not sure I would have liked it so much with the extreme sloping top tube on some frames.

    Bike fit is booked in for the 14th June with Adrian Timmis, so I will then give the nod to the correct size after this and then sit back and wait excitedly for the frame. 8)
  • kfinlay
    kfinlay Posts: 763
    Velonutter,

    A couple of things to clarify my earlier post.
    My EPS is a 50s - see the pics in my siggy - the first ones show the correct height of my saddle - the pic with the carbon wheels, the saddle height had not been set at the time of the photo (I'd changed the seatpost at the same time as the new wheels) My Centre BB to saddle top height is approx 660mm so fair bit lower than your height even though your inside leg is only 10mm or so longer than mine. I do set me cleats well back on my shoes so this makes my leg/foot seem even shorter (hence the reason I gave my foot size). I also run my stem as low as possble but the drop from the saddle height to bars is only about 20mm so flexibility less of an issue.
    I do think I need to put my saddle up a bit but may 10-20 max, I tend to be a bit over cautious of putting my saddle up too far as I try to have a more holistic approach to bike fit (like Steve Hogg who feels most people have their saddle too high - even those that have had a bike fit elsewhere). I'm going to try and raise my saddle over the next couple of months to see how it goes.
    I feel that the sloping TT is ideal for those of us that are longer in torso and shorter in leg length and the fact that the TT doesn't slope too much (unlike say a Venge frame) then it still looks good. Ugo is right though, a Master MUST be trad geometry :-)
    Hope this helps a bit, good luck and don't forget the pics when you get it.
    Kev

    Summer Bike: Colnago C60
    Winter Bike: Vitus Alios
    MTB: 1997 GT Karakorum
  • Velonutter
    Velonutter Posts: 2,437
    Cheers Kev, you have a cool bike.

    I'm fairly convinced that a gentle sloping is the way for me to go, so just got to wait to confirm things after my bike fit, then will order it.
  • glasgowbhoy
    glasgowbhoy Posts: 1,341
    edited May 2012
    Since reading this post the lust for a C59 has got under my skin again. I'm trying to find out what would be the closest frame size to my current race bike -Kuota Kebel in a Large that has a slight sloping frame. I think like our man here I'd like the slight sloping C59 too. Based on the geo here

    http://www.epic-cycles.co.uk/images/kuo ... l-geom.jpg

    Is the 52s or 54s Colnago closest to the kebel (large) ? The headtube dims seem quite different though? I ride my Kebel with the stem slammed.

    Cheers
  • MattC59
    MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    Velonutter wrote:
    MattC59 : - Nothing wrong with your Enigma, it's a great frame. I'm having to do do a bit of buying and selling to pay for this and also my mother passed away last year so a little bit of money is coming from her estate. It will let me ride something and keep forever knowing that she had helped me buy it.

    Yeah, I know there's nothing wrong with the Enigma, it's a beauty, I'm just pleased that someone else is spending more money than I am :lol:
    Unfortunately, there's no buying and selling going on here............. just buying ! (but the Mrs doesn't know that !) Thankfully, there are a lot of sales on at the moment !
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • kfinlay
    kfinlay Posts: 763
    Velonutter wrote:
    Cheers Kev, you have a cool bike.

    I'm fairly convinced that a gentle sloping is the way for me to go, so just got to wait to confirm things after my bike fit, then will order it.

    cheers mate,
    let us know how you get on with your fit? Would really like to go and see Adrian but it's around a 5hr journey each way so the cost between diesel/bike fit is just too much right now.
    Kev

    Summer Bike: Colnago C60
    Winter Bike: Vitus Alios
    MTB: 1997 GT Karakorum
  • Velonutter
    Velonutter Posts: 2,437
    Well I took the gamble and handed over a wedge of Euro's to my mate who is going to Italy on Saturday for 3 months, he's managed to get me a deal where he thinks I will have my frame in just a few weeks and with a proper warranty as well, I went with the 50s. :mrgreen:

    Apparently it comes with the official seatpost as well, whereas the UK suppliers of Colnago charge an extra £180 odd quid for! :x

    So maybe with a little luck I should have it next month and able to enjoy the summer with it.

    I spoke with Adrian about the frame and he said for only a small amount it would be easy for him to transfer my settings from my LOOK to the Colnago, so once it arrives I will switch my Super Record Groupset, bars and Bora wheels onto the new frame.

    Photo's when I finally get it, I feel like a kid in the Candy Store :mrgreen:
  • glasgowbhoy
    glasgowbhoy Posts: 1,341
    Velonutter wrote:
    Well I took the gamble and handed over a wedge of Euro's to my mate who is going to Italy on Saturday for 3 months, he's managed to get me a deal where he thinks I will have my frame in just a few weeks and with a proper warranty as well, I went with the 50s. :mrgreen:

    Apparently it comes with the official seatpost as well, whereas the UK suppliers of Colnago charge an extra £180 odd quid for! :x

    So maybe with a little luck I should have it next month and able to enjoy the summer with it.

    I spoke with Adrian about the frame and he said for only a small amount it would be easy for him to transfer my settings from my LOOK to the Colnago, so once it arrives I will switch my Super Record Groupset, bars and Bora wheels onto the new frame.

    Photo's when I finally get it, I feel like a kid in the Candy Store :mrgreen:

    Good luck John, hope it all runs smoothly and look forward to hearing how it goes and seeing the pictures of the build.
    Hopefully someone will come back on the geo question I had on the previous page. This thread has now got be back in obsessed with a C59 mode again!!!!!
  • kfinlay
    kfinlay Posts: 763
    Since reading this post the lust for a C59 has got under my skin again. I'm trying to find out what would be the closest frame size to my current race bike -Kuota Kebel in a Large that has a slight sloping frame. I think like our man here I'd like the slight sloping C59 too. Based on the geo here

    http://www.epic-cycles.co.uk/images/kuo ... l-geom.jpg

    Is the 52s or 54s Colnago closest to the kebel (large) ? The headtube dims seem quite different though? I ride my Kebel with the stem slammed.

    Cheers

    Looking at the geo charts the 52s would be better as it has the same head tube size but similar seat tube angle and effective top tube length. You may have to change the set back on your saddle and subsequently the stem length by about 10mm but other than that you will just have about 30mm more seat post showing (the seat tube is measured from the centre BB to the bottom of the seat post clamp,not the top of the seat tube for Colnagos).

    The 52s Colnago has a slightly higher seat tube angle which brings your saddle position forward slightly therefore to compensate you would need to set it back further so increasing the effective reach to the bars and compensating for the slightly shorter effective top tube length.
    The head tube on each is virtually identical but the Colnago headset has a 15mm conical spacer so this may affect the height of the bars compared to the Kebel (I don't know what it has when it comes to spacers).

    Hope this helps :-)
    Kev

    Summer Bike: Colnago C60
    Winter Bike: Vitus Alios
    MTB: 1997 GT Karakorum
  • Velonutter
    Velonutter Posts: 2,437
    Well in between waiting for the C59 to arrive, I picked myself up a 2012 CX-1 in a 50s for an absolute bargain, I went out on that on Sunday and had an absolute mare with the setup, when I got back I reviewed everything and did the following: -

    1. The Seat post had slipped down.

    2. I decided to use one of the builders laser alignment tools that a mate bought for me about 5 years ago and I never used. I set it up and then placed my original LOOK 585 against the wall so that I could get exact measurements as Adrian Timmis had determined at my bike fit.

    3. I printed out an A4 picture of the bike and wrote all the measurements exactly has I could whilst marking the laser line position against the wall with insulation tape.

    4. I then transferred all the settings perfectly to this frame and discovered that I had fitted the seat post clamp the wrong way around that prevented me from getting the right set back by nearly 2cm's!

    Once everything had been exactly transferred, i discovered that I needed a 110mm stem instead of the 100mm in order to get the right measurement.

    All that I have done since is sat on the bike and the feeling is now very similar to that of my LOOK.

    I'm pleased that I took all that time as I knew that the C59 had very similar dimensions and I would have been sickened if it had felt like the CX-1 on it's first outing.

    Lo and behold today the C59 finally arrived, just posted up a quick photo of the frame with my iPhone, so this morning I hastily had to spend some money to get another 3T ARX LTD 110mm stem.

    I'll post in "Your Bikes Section" When the C59 is built: -

    c59_150.jpg
  • kfinlay
    kfinlay Posts: 763
    Frame looks lovely, should build into a fab bike mate - try not to get too frustrate with the seatpost though - bit of a PITA to adjust the saddle angle. Can't offer any help other than persevere.
    I've got my fit with Adrian in two weeks - I've got my position better but still get a bit of tightness behind my left knee.
    Will let you know how I get on

    Look forward to the pics of the C59 build up B-)
    Kev

    Summer Bike: Colnago C60
    Winter Bike: Vitus Alios
    MTB: 1997 GT Karakorum
  • Velonutter
    Velonutter Posts: 2,437
    Had a bit of practice building the CX-1 which has a similar seatpost and geometry, first attempt I got it all wrong, then went back to the drawing board, replicated Adrian's measurements and so far the CX-1 fits nice, I'm about a 1/3rd of the way through building the C59, first error, the BB is not Italian, it's English, so going to get new cups in the morning.

    Will post when complete.
  • Very nice, I do love that new 2013 colour scheme and I'm glad to see they ditched the ridiculous Integrated Headset System and Structural Routing text
  • Gazzetta67
    Gazzetta67 Posts: 1,890
    Got my Colnago Extreme power from Maestro and their prices are at least £500 - £600 cheaper than the main dealers. Am pretty sure that the C59 will be cheaper than any of the "Windwave" dealers...They dont like Maestro as he sells the Colnago's cheaper than their "Cartels" as he puts it on his website. I think they are brought in through Belgium..Bought a Colnago Mexico,Saronni super,Master Olympic, & the Extreme Power in the past 25 years and never had a problem......as for the original question..personal choice would have to be traditional :D
  • Velonutter
    Velonutter Posts: 2,437
    I was very lucky, my mate is Italian and is working out from Italy for 3 months, so he got me the 150th Anniversary edition for €2950 (£2411) including the seatpost.

    Windwave wanted £3599.95 and that excluded the seatpost, which is a massive con, as Colnago ship all carbon frames from the factory with a Seatpost and Windwave charge another £175 for it.

    From what I hear Colnago is furious about them charging for the seatpost.

    The frame is now about 60% built, who knows how smooth the completion will be this weekend?
  • Hello all I'm interstred in getting myself a C59 too.

    Like u dear Velonutter am in the dilemma of deciding the traditional or semi sloping frame.

    I'm 6'0" tall & my inseam is 33".
    Currently I'm riding a BH G5 size 55cm top tube
    BB to saddle hight of 77cm & I'm using a 120mm Stem

    Was thinking to get the 56cm semi sloping frame. BTW how was your ride with your C59?

    Cheers.