Knee over the pedal spindle....advisable or folly ?

Raffles

For every article that I read that offers advice on really making the most of a bike fitting , where one endorses the knee over the pedal spindle ( KOPS )practice, there is one completely dismissing it. Ive been looking at my own position as kind of an afterthought to my aching sore neck which I gained after all my hill climbing on Monday past. I really do think I got it as a result of neck hyperextension, which may be a direct result of me being slightly too stretched out. I moved my seat forward a bit tonight so as to be a little closer to the bars. This resulted in more bend at the elbow and I didnt feel as though I was reaching out in the way I did on Monday past. Im out on a ride Thursday morning and Ill give the revised position a run through. Out of curiosity, I got my wife to drop a plumb weight on a string down from just under my knee whilst it was at 9 o clock to see where it fell. The weight as just ever so slightly past the pedal spindle towards the handlebar side. If I take the KOPS endorsers liberally, then an adjustment is needed, if I take those who disregard KOPS liberally, then if it works........leave it alone.

If I got all anal about it and replaced the inline seatpost I use with one offerring 1.0 -1.5 cm setback , then the KOPS practice would be satisfied , but wouldnt this just reinstate the reach situation again ?

What side of the KOPS theory do you think is correct, adherance to it, or disregard it ? Is there even a correct answer to that question or is it all purely personal to the rider ? Id also be interested in views regarding the setback seatpost issue.

Wirral_paul

Having had a knee injury, which went away after a proper bike fit session where my saddle was moved up and back slightly, I'd say it works for me.

I'd suggest that the KOPS theory will reduce the chances of getting an injury as an overall assumption - wont make any difference for plenty i'm sure, but overall its a good starting point.

You need a shorter stem, and move your saddle back to where it was by the sounds of it. Can you borrow one that 1 or 2cm shorter?

Raffles

Wirral_Paul wrote:

Having had a knee injury, which went away after a proper bike fit session where my saddle was moved up and back slightly, I'd say it works for me.

I'd suggest that the KOPS theory will reduce the chances of getting an injury as an overall assumption - wont make any difference for plenty i'm sure, but overall its a good starting point.

You need a shorter stem, and move your saddle back to where it was by the sounds of it. Can you borrow one that 1 or 2cm shorter?

I believed the multitude of online guides that said for my height..........5 ft 9, size 54 medium is on the money. Im having to use the bike with a 90mm stem as 100mm is just a tad too long. If I went for 80mm stem then I think the bike would look like cr@p. I was in decathlon and looked at a 52 frame and that thing was tiny , unfortunately they didnt have a 53 to sit on. The bike I think I need is a specialized Roubaix and that big head tube could be my saving grace. The more affordable secteur have grim groupset and wheels and the frame weighs a tonne. My body geometry just seems to introduce a spanner in the works at every turn.

alihisgreat

don't try and do it yourself.. if you're having problems get a proper fit done... its not worth getting injured.

cougie

sounds like you are in the right area.

do you always sit in exactly the same part of the saddle anyway ?

styxd

Yes, its bull shit. Have a look on Steve Hoggs website for advice on bike fitting.

ShutUpLegs

Do you have any decals on your bike :?:

hodge68

styxd wrote:

Yes, its bull shoot. Have a look on Steve Hoggs website for advice on bike fitting.

Just had a read, great site and writen so even i understand. Ive been scared to move my seat from the KOPS, even though it has not seemed the right one for me.

rick_chasey

People get very precious about bike positions and 'injury'.

Just mess about with it a bit and see what works and what doesn't. It'll be fine.

Merckx changed his saddle mid-stage on from time to time and he was putting a lot more force and strain through his legs than most people.

So does Cavendish - it'll be fine.

MichaelW

There is nothing wrong with using an 8cm stem. The bike will ride OK, you may be more comfortable.

I had a read of Steve Hogg but its hard to understand and not very practical.
Peter White's bike fit advice is simple enough to be useful for a non-racing leisure cyclist

neeb

You need to get a good bike fit. Even if you knew that for you, KOPS was the right solution, you would have great difficulty finding that position and translating it into saddle setback. I've spent hours at various times fiddling with plumb lines simply trying to set an already-known saddle position (the saddle being a static object with an obvious end point). It's amazing how imperceptible slopes in the floor, tiny turns of the front wheel etc can influence where the plumb line ends up. Trying to measure something as organic as the position of your knee in relation to the pedal spindle at a particular point in the pedal stroke is, IMHO, pretty much impossible to do with an accuracy of any more than +/- 1 or 2 centimetres, which makes a big difference to the setup. In a proper bike fit they will measure the angle of your knee joint as it is when you are actually cycling, either using a video or a goniometer.

neeb

Rick Chasey wrote:

People get very precious about bike positions and 'injury'.
Just mess about with it a bit and see what works and what doesn't. It'll be fine.

Or it might not be, and you could end up with permanent knee damage, if not immediately then 10 or 20 years down the line...

Rick Chasey wrote:

Merckx changed his saddle mid-stage on from time to time and he was putting a lot more force and strain through his legs than most people.

That's because he had one leg longer than the other, something that could have been diagnosed and corrected immediately if he'd had the chance to get a proper modern bike fit!

rick_chasey

neeb wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

People get very precious about bike positions and 'injury'.
Just mess about with it a bit and see what works and what doesn't. It'll be fine.

Or it might not be, and you could end up with permanent knee damage, if not immediately then 10 or 20 years down the line...

Rick Chasey wrote:

Merckx changed his saddle mid-stage on from time to time and he was putting a lot more force and strain through his legs than most people.

That's because he had one leg longer than the other, something that could have been diagnosed and corrected immediately if he'd had the chance to get a proper modern bike fit!

*shrugs*

My rule tends to be - if it hurts, it's not cool. If it doesn't, go for it.

butcher_boy

neeb wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

People get very precious about bike positions and 'injury'.
Just mess about with it a bit and see what works and what doesn't. It'll be fine.

Or it might not be, and you could end up with permanent knee damage, if not immediately then 10 or 20 years down the line...

Rick Chasey wrote:

Merckx changed his saddle mid-stage on from time to time and he was putting a lot more force and strain through his legs than most people.

That's because he had one leg longer than the other, something that could have been diagnosed and corrected immediately if he'd had the chance to get a proper modern bike fit!

If only Eddy had the internet, he might have won a few races :roll:

neeb

butcher_boy wrote:

If only Eddy had the internet, he might have won a few races :roll:

Presumably he'd have won even more if they'd had proper bike fitting in his day. Unless you're suggesting that the leg length difference gave him an advantage..?

As it happens I had a comprehensive bike fit just a month or two ago at which they found that my right leg is 5 - 9mm longer than the left. I 'd spent the previous 5 years sitting slightly off-centre on the saddle to compensate (i.e. towards the left side). Now I know why the edge of the saddle sometimes rubbed on the right side but never the left, and why I always wore down the brake hoods more on the right. I now have a 3mm wedge under the left cleat so that I'm centred on the saddle, and the difference in stability is really noticeable. He also gave me longer pedal spindles and sorted out my foot position and forefoot angle so that my knees track straight. I can't understand why anyone who cycles regularly and plans on doing so for the rest of their life wouldn't want to spend a fraction of the cost of a new bike in getting this sort of stuff sorted out.

butcher_boy

neeb wrote:

butcher_boy wrote:

If only Eddy had the internet, he might have won a few races :roll:

Presumably he'd have won even more if they'd had proper bike fitting in his day. Unless you're suggesting that the leg length difference gave him an advantage..?
.

I'm sure he will be gutted if only he had his bike fitted he would have won a bit more.

A man who spent more time altering tube lengths, angles, heights than anyone in his day and managed to set a successful frame making business.

Glad the bike fit sorted you out.

nickel

Regardless of whether KOPS works or not you shouldn't adjust your reach my moving the saddle, changing to a shorter stem would be a much better idea. Alternatively have you tried rotating the bars up ever so slightly? I had this done at a recent bike fit at the I couldn't believe the difference it made.

neeb

Yup, saddle position should be set completely independently of reach.

Nickel wrote:

Alternatively have you tried rotating the bars up ever so slightly? I had this done at a recent bike fit at the I couldn't believe the difference it made.

Another thing to try is actually rotating the bars down, so that the bottoms of the drops are parallel to the ground, and then moving the levers up. Sounds counter-intuitive, but this will actually bring the hoods closer, whereas if you rotate the bars up and also move the levers forward to compensate for the tilt they will actually end up further away.

Raffles

Does riding a road bike with an 80mm stem signal to all other riders "this bloke is riding a bike that doesnt fit him", Im hoping I dont have to tread down the 80mm route, Ill wait and see how I feel after a club outing at the weekend. If I have to bite the bullet, then Ill have to bite the bullet.......but I am going to exercise all options first.

I was talking to ribble cycles this morning to a not very helpful guy about frames and sizing etc, I was curious about the ribble 7046 sportive with its relaxed geometry and high head tube. When I disclosed the size of my toptube (540mm) and my height (5 ft9 ) he said that should fit me to a tee. Im at a total loss as why my neck is hurting though and knee over pedal spindle is hard to get and be comfy, 30 inch short inseam and obviously not long arms must be playing a foremost part in all this.

d87heaven

Im betting on the knee over pedal thing harks back to squats which everyone says you musn't let the knee go over the ball of foot.

Whats your posture like Raffles? Forward head posture and rounded shoulders (kyphosis) can cause neck pain whilst cycling, common in a sedantry job esp if hunched over a pc all day.

rolf_f

Raffles wrote:

Does riding a road bike with an 80mm stem signal to all other riders "this bloke is riding a bike that doesnt fit him", Im hoping I dont have to tread down the 80mm route, Ill wait and see how I feel after a club outing at the weekend. If I have to bite the bullet, then Ill have to bite the bullet.......but I am going to exercise all options first.

I was talking to ribble cycles this morning to a not very helpful guy about frames and sizing etc, I was curious about the ribble 7046 sportive with its relaxed geometry and high head tube. When I disclosed the size of my toptube (540mm) and my height (5 ft9 ) he said that should fit me to a tee. Im at a total loss as why my neck is hurting though and knee over pedal spindle is hard to get and be comfy, 30 inch short inseam and obviously not long arms must be playing a foremost part in all this.

Why are you so fixated on the idea that an 80mm stem will look crap but a 90mm stem is fine? They'll look pretty much the same. Not that it matters. The bike should match your geometry - not what the numpty who says "get rid of the spacers" thinks looks good. I have long legs and a short torso. One consequence of that is that it is almost impossible for me to get a perfect fit - one problem being that stood out of the pedals my knees get very close to the bars. If my legs were still longer, then a good fit would really be impossible as in order to reach the bars, my knees would have to clash with the bars.

If the Ribble chap wasn't helpful, you could always try ringing again. I find most of them to be very helpful and patient so you may have been unlucky. However, I'd always prefer to get a feel for a fit by having a bike fit rather than a phone conversation.

Wirral_paul

Raffles wrote:

I was talking to ribble cycles this morning to a not very helpful guy about frames and sizing etc, I was curious about the ribble 7046 sportive with its relaxed geometry and high head tube. When I disclosed the size of my toptube (540mm) and my height (5 ft9 ) he said that should fit me to a tee. Im at a total loss as why my neck is hurting though and knee over pedal spindle is hard to get and be comfy, 30 inch short inseam and obviously not long arms must be playing a foremost part in all this.

There's more to choosing the correct sized bike frame than simply knowing your height and effective top tube length. There's a load of variables to take into account when picking the right frame - including torso length, flexibility etc etc. Nobody can tell from your height only - regardless of what the guy at Ribble Cycles might think.

To be honest I think you need to worry more about getting your bike comfy than what others may think of a shorter stem.

Raffles

After moving the saddle forward a bit, today I sat on the saddle with my hands on the hoods. When I looked towards the front wheelhub , I could see it. I understand good fitting results in the front hub being obscured by the handlebars when in the position I described. Should I move my saddle back again until the front hub cant be seen ?

balthazar

FWIW, by this stage in KOPS threads this article by Keith Bontrager has usually been cited:

http://sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

I think it still makes good sense and is moreover more thorough than most subsequent discussions.