advances in air can technology

bluechair84

Hello all;

[long version] I've been mucking about with my RP3 (rebound only, no propedal or lockout) this weekend and have figured that I need to be running it at full rebound. The very odd thing is that at slowest rebound, it takes about three seconds to fully extend, so the rebound range is pretty shocking. The previous owner had it pushed and I can only assume he asked for a slower rebound range which has potentially buggered it up for my use. It's only just come back from a service so it should be performing to full capacity aside from this problem. But also, it really does seem to hang up on stutter bumps far more than the DHX4 on the torque. I know the theory about small bump sensitivity and coils, but if I'm deciding that I'm really not getting on with the RP3 anymore, should I consider buying a new air can? I want to keep the Moment's weight down to a minimum so I wouldn't consider coil. [/long version]

[short version] How much of an improvement can be gained over upgrading from the RP3? [/short version]

nicklouse

I would say the owner before was a lot heavier than you. Or needed a much higher pressure due to the frame ratio.

Give TF a call about getting it sorted for you.

bluechair84

ok, so a tune will give me as much benefit as a new shock then? I'll get in touch and see how much to move some shims about.

supersonic

RP3 is supposed to have ProPedal - 3 positions, hence the name. Unless the previous owner had it taken off. If it takes 3 seconds to rebound though at full, why are you running it like that?

nicklouse

supersonic wrote:

RP3 is supposed to have ProPedal - 3 positions, hence the name. Unless the previous owner had it taken off. If it takes 3 seconds to rebound though at full, why are you running it like that?

if it has been Pushed it is likely to have had the Pro pedal removed and valved for something.......

bluechair84

Hmm, as it was second hand and it's got the pushed sticker on it, I can't be certain myself. I thought the 23 had propedal and the 3 was rebound only. Eitherway, there's no propedal dial - but it would make more sense if the R and the P indicated things wouldn't it :shock:
I'm running it at full speed and I could do with the rebound being faster still. I don't run it at full slow, but when exploring the rebound territory, it takes 3 seconds to rebound when the bike is unloaded (push down on saddle).

supersonic

Ah I see, just the way you worded it.

I would get it sent off and revalved.

bluechair84

supersonic wrote:

Ah I see, just the way you worded it.

I would get it sent off and revalved.

I see what I did, I meant that only one setting (fastest) on the rebound was useable. I'll give TF a call then and see how much it costs. The web just seems to show prices for full service costs and it's just been serviced.
Cheers Nick, SS.

bennett_346

PUSH used to take the lockout out of the RP3 and turn it into a LSC option. It does sound like you just have a basic R. Can't think why the blue lever would have been removed.

EDIT: Looking at your photos, it is just an R.

Float R



Float RP3

bluechair84

Yeah, now my understanding of what the rp23 derivations mean it makes sense. Still, what does the 2 and 3 signify?
I've also heard that propedal reduces the sensitivity of a shock, you can't dial it to be as smooth as one without propedal. You'd think the performance would be a little better on the basic shock but I'm not happy with it at the moment.

386ka

bluechair84 wrote:

Yeah, now my understanding of what the rp23 derivations mean it makes sense. Still, what does the 2 and 3 signify?
I've also heard that propedal reduces the sensitivity of a shock, you can't dial it to be as smooth as one without propedal. You'd think the performance would be a little better on the basic shock but I'm not happy with it at the moment.

Get it pushed again according to your demands, use and bike.

bennett_346

bluechair84 wrote:

Yeah, now my understanding of what the rp23 derivations mean it makes sense. Still, what does the 2 and 3 signify?
I've also heard that propedal reduces the sensitivity of a shock, you can't dial it to be as smooth as one without propedal. You'd think the performance would be a little better on the basic shock but I'm not happy with it at the moment.

RP2 means rebound, and 2 positions of Low speed compression. The P being Propedal (on or off in the RP2s case). The RP3 is the same, rebound, 3 positions of compression (Propedal on, open damping, or locked out, so three LSC positions). The The R just has rebound damping, fixed shims for compression so very basic and damping performance is poorer (propedal is always on also). RP23 is 2 settings for propedal as in on/off, but three setting for propedal when it is on to give variable lsc that can be easier switched on and off, hence 23

The aim behind propedal is to reduce wallow and bob similar to motion control forks etc, it doesn't reduce the sensivity per say because under harsh bumps it will switch back to open damping. What you have heard about not being able to tune Propedal shocks as smooth as none propedal ones sounds like crap, who told you this? If you run the propedal off and keep it set to open it's like riding an R but with better compression stroke tuning...

bluechair84

The info on the float derivations is useful (but I've propedal on two other shocks, it's very good).
I think I might have read about the propedal theory in a Pinkbike tech Tuesday. Somewhere there was something which suggested the propedal circuitry slowed down the shocks response time and whilst it offered a very useful range of adjustment, it couldn't be as open as a shock without it. Though I don't know enough about how the internals work to know myself.
I'll probably stick to sending it to TF, but it's interesting you say the compression tuning is better in an RP23... with the price I'd have to spend on tuning I'm a good chunk of the cost towards a brand new shock.

bennett_346

Personally, i'd save for an RP23, the damping really feels tenfold better. With those you not only get very adjustable damping but also, the most important upgrade over your current one i would say is that you can actually turn propedal off to descend making it just as plush as any other shock. Your R has it constantly on so however you get it pushed its always going to have the delay you talk about. I've had a number of fox floats of various kinds over the years and they've been good to me and to be honest i use the open setting a hell of a lot and it feels brilliant to descent on compared to when propedal is on.

Having said that PP is a great climbing aid and i use it a lot.

YeehaaMcgee

Propedal doesn't add a delay, really. It's just that in any real-life system, the separation between high and low speed damping is imperfect - changes in one will affect the other to a degree.
So, when you have substantial low-speed damping, it will also increase the high-speed damping a bit as well.

bennett_346

That's probably a better way of putting it aye.

bluechair84

bennett_346 wrote:

Personally, i'd save for an RP23, the damping really feels tenfold better. With those you not only get very adjustable damping but also, the most important upgrade over your current one i would say is that you can actually turn propedal off to descend making it just as plush as any other shock. Your R has it constantly on so however you get it pushed its always going to have the delay you talk about. I've had a number of fox floats of various kinds over the years and they've been good to me and to be honest i use the open setting a hell of a lot and it feels brilliant to descent on compared to when propedal is on.

Having said that PP is a great climbing aid and i use it a lot.

I wonder if it's this that I can feel then... the always-on propedal. I didn't know it had it built in. I really don't want PP sitting quietly doing it's thing all the time. I used to adjust it a lot when the DHX5 was on the frame and will be going back to coil for an enduro this weekend as I know I can get that set up very nicely what ever the terrain.
I'll re-mail TF and ask if they are also able to upgrade a shock to RP23 status and see if that's cheaper than buying one.
All great advice guys, thanks for the input so far.

YeehaaMcgee

I'm actually going to ask them to bypass or remove the PP on my air can when it gets sent for a service. I don't really want to pay for a "better" shock when all I really want is to minimise low speed damping. It's a lot of money to gain a switch that will always stay in the same position.

bluechair84

That's something else I didn't know they could do. I've always used PP quite a bit when I've had it on other shocks so for me it might be worth seeing if they can put it into my can whilst adjusting the rebound range.

YeehaaMcgee

Well, by remove, what I suspect they'll do is reduce the PP damping to almost nothing, not actually physically remove that part of the damper.

bluechair84

Well, emails sent to get quotes for upgrading the shock to RP2 status and speeding up the rebound. Fingers crossed it's not crazy pricing as it's only recently had a service anyway as the rebound circuit was blown.

Actually, that's just made me realise. Mojo had the shock to repair the rebound and it's come back slow as shoot - I don't remember it being this slow though I didn't really fiddle with the rebound much. It worked pretty fine for me. What are the chances they've accidentally fudged up the rebound speed as now there's only one useable setting on it... Worth giving them an email I think.

bennett_346

It does sound like they've accidentally done something wrong with it, you should have a few clicks either way of the correct setting, although remember there should only be one rebound click that's correct for you as the change between each click is a lot.

supersonic

Though you can get them to narrow the range. This is one of the points of getting them valved, a middle setting near what you like, then easy fine tuning, not large steps per click.

bennett_346

True, i was considering getting that done to mine a while back.