4th cat races

RoadMeridaBen

JamesFree wrote:

For my first few races I'm just planning to sit near the back and get a feel how things work in these races before I start risking crash by going for the sprint in my first race. Though if I find myself well positioned I will find it very hard not to have a dig at the end Roll on the 2nd!

Im thinking of doing my first crit within the next month, I dont have much experience in group riding though.
I've been TT'ing for the last year or so and love it normally finishing in the top 3 in open events.

As above I intend to stay at the back and observe how things work, I figure I should be strong enough to keep up anyway, as I cant sprint for shit I recon the breakaway sounds appealing :P

The only thing that annoys me is the constant speeding up and slowing down, being a TT'er I've got a diesel engine
and like to keep a constant speed lol

JamesFree

Had my first Crit Race at Hillingdon Saturday and can now say im totally hooked and evened managed some points with a 5th.

Found it a hell of a lot easier than I expected as could be done better if I had sorted my positioning better as was 11th leading into the final straight, but cant recommend it enough!

I was suprised at the level I was managed to hold my HR at compared to training rides or even chaingangs without any issue roll on my next race and will hopefully get my 3rd Cat soon!

Oh and sitting right at the back is'nt a good idea as any accelerations/change of paces will be multiplied by the time it reaches you a massive gap has formed for you to close, I generally sat in the back 1/4 of the pack occasionally moving up to get a feel for moving around in the bunch and it was nowhere near as hard to move as expected as alot of the more nervous riders tend to let you through if you start to head through.

indjke

PeteMadoc wrote:

I did my first 4th cat race last week.

Av speed was 25.8.

I amazed by the speed of "slowest" races :shock:
Is average level of amateur racing so much higher in England than in Moscow? :roll:
In my first race I was blown off and dropped after ~40 miles of total 64 and averaged near 20, while main bunch speed was about 22.5. But I should mention it was hilly route with ~3000 feet gain. Was your course flat?

jibberjim

indjke wrote:

I amazed by the speed of "slowest" races :shock:
Is average level of amateur racing so much higher in England than in Moscow? :roll:
In my first race I was blown off and dropped after ~40 miles of total 64 and averaged near 20, while main bunch speed was about 22.5. But I should mention it was hilly route with ~3000 feet gain. Was your course flat?

They're almost flat crit courses, often with very simple corners you can ride very fast through - Hillingdon doesn't have a single corner you can't pedal through for example. Cat 3/4 road races on rolling courses tend to be a similar speed to the 22.5 you have there.

okgo

jibberjim wrote:

indjke wrote:

I amazed by the speed of "slowest" races :shock:
Is average level of amateur racing so much higher in England than in Moscow? :roll:
In my first race I was blown off and dropped after ~40 miles of total 64 and averaged near 20, while main bunch speed was about 22.5. But I should mention it was hilly route with ~3000 feet gain. Was your course flat?

They're almost flat crit courses, often with very simple corners you can ride very fast through - Hillingdon doesn't have a single corner you can't pedal through for example. Cat 3/4 road races on rolling courses tend to be a similar speed to the 22.5 you have there.

Yep! Those figs meet up with everything I've done. Flat crits 25/26 mph, flat road races 24/25 mph, hillier road races 22/23 (at 3/4 level)

Whereas the only 2/3 I've done which wasn't flat as such, but not hilly was 26 mph however didn't feel much harder than one of the 3/4's, let alone 4 mph harder.

huuregeil

RoadMeridaBen wrote:

Im thinking of doing my first crit within the next month, I dont have much experience in group riding though.
I've been TT'ing for the last year or so and love it normally finishing in the top 3 in open events.

As above I intend to stay at the back and observe how things work, I figure I should be strong enough to keep up anyway, as I cant sprint for shoot I recon the breakaway sounds appealing :P

The only thing that annoys me is the constant speeding up and slowing down, being a TT'er I've got a diesel engine
and like to keep a constant speed lol

The last 3/4 road race I raced in was won by a guy who put what seemed like an innocuous gap on the bunch with about 15 miles to go, and proceeded to stretch it out to win clear by almost 50 seconds. Turns out he was quite a good tester! In other words, if you've got a diesel engine, the breakaway option is actually quite a good strategy - the trick is knowing when/where to jump.

giropaul

Every race differs, according to multiple factors, including how many riders are from one club, the wind, climbs etc etc. A race can be 20mph average (though I don't know why anyone would bother with an average, as it's so not really that useful), but there could be 2 or 3 km at a blistering pace that might see off half the field. The higher the caregory of riders, the more likely that there will be steady spells where there's no point to anyone driving.

4th cats are (by definition) newcomers, or those who have never been upgraded EVER - (yes, I know that there are some dubious "4ths" about!)
3rd cats could have been 1sts or Elites.
Therefore there is more "experience" in a 3/4 than in a 4ths only. With experience comes the ability to read a race, when to chase and when to soft tap. In 4th cat races I have observed there is an ample supply of "bunch engines", few of whom are likely to trouble the judges at the end. Therefore a 4th cat race can be "faster" than a 3/4, or even a 1/2/3. However, the critical thing is the top speed that the race reaches, and that's what can catch people out.

okgo

Dunno about a 4ths race being faster than a 123. Most 4ths are slower than most 3rds, by definition. And if they're not they will be 3rds pretty quickly.

Do agree about the top speed, I felt like I really could have done with an 11t when bombing along at 32-35mph on the slight decline in our race the other day!

CYCLESPORT1

See also:
http://www.tlicycling.org.uk/Default.aspx

giropaul

okgo wrote:

Dunno about a 4ths race being faster than a 123. Most 4ths are slower than most 3rds, by definition. And if they're not they will be 3rds pretty quickly.

quote]
I would suggest that the 4th cats who can hang onto the bunch engines and can sprint are the ones who will be 3rds pretty quickly.

Wrath Rob

giropaul wrote:

okgo wrote:

Dunno about a 4ths race being faster than a 123. Most 4ths are slower than most 3rds, by definition. And if they're not they will be 3rds pretty quickly.

I would suggest that the 4th cats who can hang onto the bunch engines and can sprint are the ones who will be 3rds pretty quickly.

And then spend a lot of time being dropped. Crit based 4th cat (Hillingdon, Dunsfold etc) more often than not ends up in a sprint finish as they're flat. Therefore if you spend the entire race hiding in the bunch and pop out to take the sprint you'll not learn much about racing and also struggle much more when you move up. Plus its pretty boring. Instead if you try and mix it up a bit, get into a break, take some turns on the front, you'll get much more out of the race and be better prepared for 3rds when you get there.

springtide9

Quick question...

The obvious thing that comes up when starting racing is are you fit enough not to at least get dropped.

Now have a PM, or at least did have until it broke, but anyway, should have it back soon.

It sees that from the PM (and Golden Cheetah) I get get an estimate of my Critical Power (I assume this is the same as FTP?).

Obviously weight also comes into effect, but say based on a reasonably flat track (where weight is less of an issue)... what kind of minimum CP is really needed for say a Cat 4 race?

I understand there are a lot of factors, so just looking for ballpark figures.

jibberjim

springtide9 wrote:

I understand there are a lot of factors, so just looking for ballpark figures.

I know of a woman who stayed in a mens 3rd cat race bunch with around 140 watts, she said it was insanely boring.

springtide9

jibberjim wrote:

springtide9 wrote:

I understand there are a lot of factors, so just looking for ballpark figures.

I know of a woman who stayed in a mens 3rd cat race bunch with around 140 watts, she said it was insanely boring.

Does adding bodyweight and/or height add anything into the mix? (83 kg / 182cm)

okgo

http://app.strava.com/activities/6719265

I'm about your weight give or take. That was a 3/4 race but you get the idea I hope

To see the actual laps you have to view the hidden segments as it was that way around.

alex1rob

This racing malarky is expensive! How do you guys afford it?!

£10 a pop seems a fair bit for 40 minutes.

okgo

We're all lawyers and dentist, didn't you know?

springtide9

okgo wrote:

http://app.strava.com/activities/6719265

I'm about your weight give or take. That was a 3/4 race but you get the idea I hope

To see the actual laps you have to view the hidden segments as it was that way around.

Thanks, I think it's useful....

Only really have two useful rides logged with the PT:
http://app.strava.com/rides/9012143
http://app.strava.com/rides/8920951

It seems to imply I might be OK, but still not convinced I'll not get dropped in the first lap.

With all my cards on the table, Golden Cheetah is giving me a CP of around 270 watts.. but I'm sure I've read that Cat 4 are usually 300+ watts. I'm not sure I feel better informed after the Powertap purchase compared to before!
I guess giving it a try to get an expectation is needed.

okgo

They're not 300w, that's for sure. I would say the vast majority of 4th cat and a lot of 3rd cat riders do not have 300w FTP's.

If you take out the laps where I was away on my own then the average would be around 220 for an hour. Which you can do according to the above. To win one you will need a good sprint or ability to hold a higher power for a while in a break.

Obviously the power thing is just a guide, you need to have the fitness to react to bursts and recover, that is what gets a lot of people. It's very different to a TT effort, being in the bunch.

Wouldn't worry about it, I had the same thoughts as you, worried I'd make a tit out of myself, when I did eventually do it I won by about 25 meters, the only person close was a mate who was also wondering the same, just get out and do it would be my advice. Average speed and power only ever tell half the story in a race.

jibberjim

springtide9 wrote:

It seems to imply I might be OK, but still not convinced I'll not get dropped in the first lap.

At 76kg with a ~300 FTP I got dropped on the first lap of my first race - I slowed too much when there was a crash in front of me and the bunch was gone. I rode around without getting lapped.

In later races I could pretty much do what I wanted, the races were never tough unless I made them tough - I have a weak 1 minute (which is what actually matters in 4th cat sprints, not your peak 10-20second wattage that people like to bandy about) so I didn't get to walk out of 4th cat, but it certainly wasn't tough - I also had no problem being active in 2/3 races with the same FTP. At 270watts FTP at somewhere like dunsfold or goodwood (where the woman's race log I mentioned before was) you'll have no trouble at all unless you really can't deal with a change in pace, and you're scared of being close to a wheel. There are certainly guys your weight being very active in 4th cat races with less than 250watt average on the night.

CakeLovinBeast

I have no idea of my FTP, having never used a PM more than once. I do know that at 89Kg/188cm, I'm bigger and heavier than most people that I'm racing against. OK, I'm not really challenging for honours, but neither am I often dropped, except in smaller, twistier, crit-style races.

I spent ages pondering the "Am I good enough to race" dilemma before I started out (this season). At the end of the day, the best thing you can do is jump in and have a go - I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

MikeWW

alex1rob wrote:

This racing malarky is expensive! How do you guys afford it?!

£10 a pop seems a fair bit for 40 minutes.

Race last week cost me over £500!!!!
Don't think the race entries are bad value and you can always get it back and more if you win

CakeLovinBeast

okgo wrote:

Obviously the power thing is just a guide, you need to have the fitness to react to bursts and recover, that is what gets a lot of people...

Also to say, completely agree with this... It's where I'm weakest (and I know it). I raced last night (in horizontal rain and 40mph gusting wind, admittedly) - I put in a stupid effort off the front on the first lap, which effectively destroyed any chances of me being competitive in a race where I had my best chance yet of scoring points (starting field of 14 riders!). I got caught, struggled to recover, clung on for a while, then was blown out the back. Managed to put in a monster effort to get back on, but ultimately ended up being dropped on the last lap to finish solo. Came in 12th, but only because the other two guys abandoned.

It's all a learning curve. I don't take it badly - it's all about learning. I'd like to think that one day, I'll be fit (and clever) enough to do well!

MikeWW

CakeLovinBeast wrote:

okgo wrote:

Obviously the power thing is just a guide, you need to have the fitness to react to bursts and recover, that is what gets a lot of people...

Also to say, completely agree with this... It's where I'm weakest (and I know it). I raced last night (in horizontal rain and 40mph gusting wind, admittedly) - I put in a stupid effort off the front on the first lap, which effectively destroyed any chances of me being competitive in a race where I had my best chance yet of scoring points (starting field of 14 riders!). I got caught, struggled to recover, clung on for a while, then was blown out the back. Managed to put in a monster effort to get back on, but ultimately ended up being dropped on the last lap to finish solo. Came in 12th, but only because the other two guys abandoned.

It's all a learning curve. I don't take it badly - it's all about learning. I'd like to think that one day, I'll be fit (and clever) enough to do well!

It definitely is a learning curve and it also depends what you want out of the race. I did a lot of races where I would be attacking off the front, trying to get in a break etc and I was getting swamped at the end but really enjoyed the racing. In the end though I tried being more tactical, followed wheels and conserved energy and was able to contest the sprint. So you can bag some points but it is fairly boring for much of the race.

okgo

Its where I was mega weak too, I remember going on a chain-gang with Jibberjim in October and it blew me away, I was on the edge just trying to keep his and the others wheels on the flat, then out of a round about that slightly split the group I was gone out the back never to catch them again.

CakeLovinBeast

I still get dropped on pretty much every chaingang I head out on, but shove myself in with the 2nd/3rd cats and just try and hang on for longer each week!

okgo

Haha. Good work. I seem to have been quite lucky with my fitness gains, I could probably solo the chain-gang route faster than I was doing it in the winter with a group now. But its all about sticking to it and getting those hard rides in.

mediamazter

Im 91kg and 183 cm tall... (use to be 133kg!!)... Entered a race to see how id get on knowing id not be good enough and did better than i thought i would... Got dropped from the back of the bunch on lap 5 and lapped on the 9th lap i think...
Hill took its toll in the end but loved it though and had a few finish behind so just engcouraged to work harder now..

All i can say is turn up and have a go..

Heres my Strava data for the race.. http://app.strava.com/rides/9734219

B

JamesFree

My god what an awful race by me today!

After last weeks race which on the whole I found fairly easy and got a 5th this week even after no proper riding and a heavey long weekend I still had fairly high expectations.

First few laps felt fine my legs felt awesome after their lack of riding HR a little high but nothing to write home about so I though may have a little dig so I did and a couple went with me and then soon realised I was going to struggle when we hit the wind and were reeled back in after a lap. Then the next few laps with my HR super high I kept finding myself on the front or very poorly place so I was getting loads of the wind. Then a couple of others had a dig and as the group went to chase them for the next few laps my HR just maxed! Have never seen it so high and completely blew up and had to stop when I fell off the back!

So an awful ride by me when I should have just sat in and taken it easy!!

dbjockey

I've raced three times in basement races.
4th cat - 24th in the bunch
3/4 - dropped 2 laps in
4th cat - 20th in the bunch

I would say that its very important to be comfortable riding close to others which is obvious, but keeping your line, not slowing or changing direction too sharply is also very important. Also if you see a wayward rider then make a mental note to avoid them and not to get stuck behind them!
Get out of the way of the peleton if you're dropped too, this is something I wasn't told but can piss people off.
There are a lot of angry riders amongst the majority having fun so just ignore those muppetts. Shouting and swearing really doesn't help.

Its all about riding safe when getting experience I think, just my third race but already I think I've a better idea of how to maintain an even effort and hence not end up going back and forth as much. Next race I hope to actually start paying some attention to what's going on up front, and maybe get in a break or attack, as I cant sprint for sh..