Tangible differences a wheel change would realise ?

Raffles

The wheels on my bike are Mavic type, say I spent a few quid on a better set of wheels like Kysriums or something like that and I sat on my bike with existing wheels and then the new ones..................is there anything I would notice immediately or is it a lot more subtle than that ?

yeachan153

Well I swapped my Alexrims s500 on my Spesh Allez for PX model B's which are around 400 grams lighter at 1650g. What is most noticeable is that the bike's acceleration is much improved, and climbing is slightly easier. It wasn't a massive improvement as I thought it would be. Your top speed etc, will remain pretty much the same. To improve top speed & average speed you will need deeper section wheels. I did notice a 2mph increase in speed coming from the s500, but that's because the model B's have semi-aero rims and aero spokes.

Gizmodo

This topic has been discussed quite a few times recently. Try having a look at:
Any good road wheels around £150-£200
Handbuilt wheels
Which wheels?
Upgrade wheels for £400-£600
Wheels again

I believe the consensus is, yes wheels are a good upgrade as long as you have enough money to spend on something worth while. If all you have is £150 you won't get anything better than stock wheels. If you can stretch to £200 or more then you can get a good upgrade.

I would recommend going Hand Built, rather than mass produced in a factory. You definatley need to consider your weight and the type of riding you do. Having ultra light weight 18 spoke wheels are great for pros who get a new pair every race.

Phone http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/ and talk to him about what your requirements are, he'll recommend something for you.

Raffles

Giz

I weigh 12 stone 12 pounds and the roads I ride on make it mandatory that I stick with 32 spoke wheel types or else it would be a broken spokes nightmare. If I set aside 300 quid for a wheelset, do you think Id be able to pick up something that would make a very real difference ?

Gizmodo

Personally I upgraded my Bontrager wheels that came with my Trek Madone 3.5 to handbuilt wheels that cost me £450 and yes, I believe that I can feel a significant difference.

My friend had serious mechanical problems with water ingress into the hub bearings of his stock wheels and had wheels handbuilt by someone on this forum. They cost him less than £200 and he is well happy. See http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40020&t=12853942&p=17617753

I'm not an expert but I know that most people on this forum believe that wheels are the first big upgrade to any bike. Also if you read most bike reviews in Cycling+ magazine, the biggest criticism with most bikes, even high priced ones, is the wheels.

With that kind of budget I think you could get something that you would notice an immediate difference with. As I said earlier, I would recommend you phone some wheel builders and talk about it.

thescouselander

It's a strange thing - just looking at the physics a 400g difference in wheel weight shouldn't really be that noticeable, the difference in the energy you need to put in is fairly negligible. I reckon a lot of the effect must be psychosomatic - still, a bling set of wheels might help you go faster if it makes you think your bike is better.

Wirral_paul

thescouselander wrote:

It's a strange thing - just looking at the physics a 400g difference in wheel weight shouldn't really be that noticeable, the difference in the energy you need to put in is fairly negligible.

Dont agree i'm afraid. Assuming a decent proportion of the weight saving is at the circumference of the circle, ie the rim, tyre and tube, then you will see a genuinely noticeable difference with lighter wheels, tyres etc. Rotating weight is amplified over static weight in the effect it has - so while 400g of weight saving in the wheels doesnt sound much, i'd bet a 10kg bike with 1500g wheels would feel more lively than a 7kg bike with 2000g wheels.

My 2 bikes have a significant difference in feel - 1530g carbon clinchers on one and 1850g Fulcrum R7s on the other. The carbon shod bike feels loads more lively despite the whole bike being only 1/2lb lighter

centimani

Sometimes you have to go backwards to appreciate what you gained going forwards (does that make sense ?)

Stock wheels on my Bianchi, bombproof but moderately heavy, eventually replaced with Fulcrum 5s. Did my speed increase...i dont think so, but there again, i'd been off the bike for a while so i perhaps the better wheels masked my lack of fitness. A bit tenuous, but..
Increased acceleration...i believe i could feel that. Better hillclimbing, ditto. Speeding up quickly downhill..again, i believe they do.
But even then, this was after i'd upgraded the bearings. I felt the bearings in the new Fulcrums were stiff. They would have freed up, but i did feel they were slow at first (with the standard bearings).

So, going backwards to appreciate what you had...
Just fitted a pair of Rodis (standard wheels fitted to my Ribble) to my Bianchi (getting it ready to sell) i...they feel so different to the fulcrums. At slow speed, turning felt heavy, but that may have been the cheap tyres as well. Just not as zippy, zingy, whatever you want to call it. A bit..meh...just 'ok'. They'd be good wheels for the money, but i believe you can feel the difference with better wheels.

Bordersroadie

Surely the reduced weight at the circumference (ie rim, tube, tyre) gives an advantage only in acceleration. In constant state (ie speed) the flywheel effect of a slightly heavier wheel is advantageous due to its momentum. There's a lot of bullsh1t talked on the subject. Increased average speeds? Yeah, down to the wheels, right. :roll:

I do have handbuilts but the weight saving wasn't my primary concern over the stock wheels. Much better bearings, better trueness, more spokes (18 on the stock wheels FFS - what is all that about?), better spoke lacing patterns for the real world, greater comfort (eg radial vs cross spokes), better quality rims and hubs, better prospects for longevity (I expect to get many years out of my DA hubs).

Raffles

Do you think the notion of buying a decent lighter set of wheels , getting on the bike and noticing the bike just seems a lot more spritely is a bit far fetched ? Thats why I had mentioned possibility of any changes being subtle and not something that hits you between the eyes.

Wirral_paul

Bordersroadie wrote:

Surely the reduced weight at the circumference (ie rim, tube, tyre) gives an advantage only in acceleration. In constant state (ie speed) the flywheel effect of a slightly heavier wheel is advantageous due to its momentum. There's a lot of bullsh1t talked on the subject. Increased average speeds? Yeah, down to the wheels, right. :roll:

Primarily in acceleration and climbing is where you will notice the difference yep. Once up to speed then the difference will be negligible so any gains in average speed will be extremely small, and probably more down to having to put less effort into accelerating the wheels up to speed in the first place. If you see 0.1mph increase on the flat then i would say thats an over-estimate. On the hilly rides is where you'll likely see an increased average - but anyone who says 2mph is being silly.

P_Tucker

Good question OP - its nice to see some thinking applied to bicycle upgrades. Here's some SCIENCE behind bicycle performance with a paragraph specifically on the preposterous claims made in favour of light wheels

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance

Basically says that weight makes bugger all difference to speed; even up mountains you'd only notice it if you were racing, and the supposed benefits in crits with constant accelerations are somewhat overstated as well.

Aerodynamics are much more important, but if you're pottering around at 15 mph (which as a beginner isn't an unreasonable assumption) then you won't notice the small difference either.

Naturally, I will be shot down shortly by people who tell me that lighter wheels "feel" much better. This of course originates from the marketing departments of wheel manufacturers and is then picked up and sprinted with by people who are loathe to admit that they can't tell any difference after spending a weeks wages on new set of wheels.

If "feel" this is a concern, then I'd suggest having a w*nk before going out on your bike - this way you get all the benefits (feel better, indistinguishable bicycle performance) without shelling out any money. If you already do this before a ride, then all things considered I'd recommend new wheels. Get some deep section (aero) ones, they make a brilliant noise when you're out of the saddle which I reckon sounds a bit like a Tie Fighter from Star Wars.

Hope this helps.

Raffles

PTucker, are you saying there is a very plausible scenario where a rider hands out cash for a nicer set of wheels which the marketing dept promise the earth about..........and the rider cant tell a single difference between them and the cheaper set and it becomes a matter of they MUST be better as they cost more ?

stronginthesun

agree with above . emperors new clothes situation . us beginners are not going to go any faster or climb easier ect ect on a set of £ 1000 wheels than you are on a set of £150 wheels .

Raffles

stronginthesun wrote:

agree with above . emperors new clothes situation . us beginners are not going to go any faster or climb easier ect ect on a set of £ 1000 wheels than you are on a set of £150 wheels .

WoW...... :shock:

kevin69

my experience in going from planet x model b wheels to mavic ksyrium elites (at about 3x the price)
was that the mavics immediately felt much smoother. This gave me greater confidence descending,
so i descended faster. It made no measurable difference in uphill speed, or on the flat.

If i could safely ride blindfolded, i'm sure i could tell which wheelset was which with a blindfold on.

nickel

I noticed the difference switching between the stock cxp22s/shimano hub wheels on my allez and the Planet X Al30s I upgraded too. I think its rubbish saying that £150 won't get you a set of wheels any better than the stocks wheels that come with a bike. Changing to the Planet X wheels shaved 400g off the weight of the bike, but the main difference for me was the stiffness increase. With the stock wheels the rim would be rubbing on the pads on steep climbs (and at 64kg I'm not exactly heavy) whereas I get virtually no flex out the Al30s at all.

P_Tucker

Raffles wrote:

PTucker, are you saying there is a very plausible scenario where a rider hands out cash for a nicer set of wheels which the marketing dept promise the earth about..........and the rider cant tell a single difference between them and the cheaper set and it becomes a matter of they MUST be better as they cost more ?

I've no doubt that in general more expensive wheels are better, but science tells us that the difference is really quite small. As for "feel" - yes, you probably will be able to distinguish between expensive wheels and cheap wheels in a Pepsi challenge - but you won't notice any difference in speed unless you time trial, race up mountains or visit a wind tunnel. Also don't forget the bling factor - important to some and there's nothing wrong with that.

slowondefy2

Nickel wrote:

I noticed the difference switching between the stock cxp22s/shimano hub wheels on my allez and the Planet X Al30s I upgraded too. I think its rubbish saying that £150 won't get you a set of wheels any better than the stocks wheels that come with a bike. Changing to the Planet X wheels shaved 400g off the weight of the bike, but the main difference for me was the stiffness increase. With the stock wheels the rim would be rubbing on the pads on steep climbs (and at 64kg I'm not exactly heavy) whereas I get virtually no flex out the Al30s at all.

My stock CXP22s would flex and rub on the brake pads too... Until I got my LBS to sort them out (free under warranty) and it felt like I'd been given new wheels.

nickel

slowondefy2 wrote:

Nickel wrote:

I noticed the difference switching between the stock cxp22s/shimano hub wheels on my allez and the Planet X Al30s I upgraded too. I think its rubbish saying that £150 won't get you a set of wheels any better than the stocks wheels that come with a bike. Changing to the Planet X wheels shaved 400g off the weight of the bike, but the main difference for me was the stiffness increase. With the stock wheels the rim would be rubbing on the pads on steep climbs (and at 64kg I'm not exactly heavy) whereas I get virtually no flex out the Al30s at all.

My stock CXP22s would flex and rub on the brake pads too... Until I got my LBS to sort them out (free under warranty) and it felt like I'd been given new wheels.

Interesting, mine were retrued a couple of times but it made no difference at all.

houndlegs

Went out for a ride today,upped my average speed by 2 mph. No new wheels,but a new jacket from aldis, its as fast as a fast thing that just came first in a being fast competition.
This was the black and white one, I have no idea if the others are as fast as this :twisted:

Wirral_paul

http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsClimb_Page.html

For anyone wanting to do the science themselves ^^^. I tried it with everything identical other than the wheel weights (ie didnt make a sweeping statement based on the results of a weight vs aero test) and added 200g to each wheel. The result was nearly 5.5s and 22.75m on the theoretical 5k climb. Small but if racing - possibly the difference between 1st and an also-ran

andyeb

I have an entry level road bike (Jamis Ventura Comp; carbon forks, aluminium frame), which gives me a fair amount of road "buzz" during my 30 mile commute. I've been looking at upgrades which might combat this and someone recommended I upgrade the wheels. Can better wheels really absorb vibration? If so how? How much would I have to spend on a pair of wheels to make a significant difference? I currently have the stock Mavic CXP-22 rims, no-name hubs and 14g stainless steel spokes.

Also considering a carbon seat post and handle bars as cheaper upgrade alternatives, but I'm told the wheels will make more difference. Is this true?

P_Tucker

andyeb wrote:

I have an entry level road bike (Jamis Ventura Comp; carbon forks, aluminium frame), which gives me a fair amount of road "buzz" during my 30 mile commute. I've been looking at upgrades which might combat this and someone recommended I upgrade the wheels. Can better wheels really absorb vibration? If so how? How much would I have to spend on a pair of wheels to make a significant difference? I currently have the stock Mavic CXP-22 rims, no-name hubs and 14g stainless steel spokes.

Also considering a carbon seat post and handle bars as cheaper upgrade alternatives, but I'm told the wheels will make more difference. Is this true?

Let 5psi out of your tyres. Will make much more difference than any of the above, and is free.

Raffles

If I took out the old credit card and spent £300 on a lighter wheelset ,is there a real chance I may notice nothing diffferent at all ? I am a club rider myself ,but I have no interest in racing nor time trialling and I cycle to stay fit. Could I be throwing £300 out the window ?

I did a longer post along these lines a bit earlier.....but it has disappeared :?

andyeb

P_Tucker wrote:

Let 5psi out of your tyres. Will make much more difference than any of the above, and is free.

I'm currently running them at 100PSI which is the minimum stated on the side walls of the tyres. Won't running at less than this increase my risk of snake-bite punctures?

Raffles

andyeb wrote:

P_Tucker wrote:

Let 5psi out of your tyres. Will make much more difference than any of the above, and is free.

I'm currently running them at 100PSI which is the minimum stated on the side walls of the tyres. Won't running at less than this increase my risk of snake-bite punctures?

100PSI is the maximum,not minimum

nickel

andyeb wrote:

I have an entry level road bike (Jamis Ventura Comp; carbon forks, aluminium frame), which gives me a fair amount of road "buzz" during my 30 mile commute. I've been looking at upgrades which might combat this and someone recommended I upgrade the wheels. Can better wheels really absorb vibration? If so how? How much would I have to spend on a pair of wheels to make a significant difference? I currently have the stock Mavic CXP-22 rims, no-name hubs and 14g stainless steel spokes.

Also considering a carbon seat post and handle bars as cheaper upgrade alternatives, but I'm told the wheels will make more difference. Is this true?

if the tyres are stock OEM wire ones changing to some decent folding tyres would make a big difference to the ride.

P_Tucker

Raffles wrote:

If I took out the old credit card and spent £300 on a lighter wheelset ,is there a real chance I may notice nothing diffferent at all ? I am a club rider myself ,but I have no interest in racing nor time trialling and I cycle to stay fit. Could I be throwing £300 out the window ?

I did a longer post along these lines a bit earlier.....but it has disappeared :?

You wouldn't notice anything quanitifiable. If you ride with a group the people who drop you will still drop you. If you ride on your own you may arrive home a few seconds earlier from a 60 mile ride, not that you'd ever be able to measure this given that you don't ride in a vacuum. Your bike may feel slightly different, and after you've spent £300 you'll quickly convince yourself that this feeling is worth it. Well, you might not because you don't appear to be an idiot.

andyeb

Nickel wrote:

if the tyres are stock OEM wire ones changing to some decent folding tyres would make a big difference to the ride.

Thanks! Any that you would particularly recommend?

Raffles

P_Tucker wrote:

Raffles wrote:

If I took out the old credit card and spent £300 on a lighter wheelset ,is there a real chance I may notice nothing diffferent at all ? I am a club rider myself ,but I have no interest in racing nor time trialling and I cycle to stay fit. Could I be throwing £300 out the window ?

I did a longer post along these lines a bit earlier.....but it has disappeared :?

You wouldn't notice anything quanitifiable. If you ride with a group the people who drop you will still drop you. If you ride on your own you may arrive home a few seconds earlier from a 60 mile ride, not that you'd ever be able to measure this given that you don't ride in a vacuum. Your bike may feel slightly different, and after you've spent £300 you'll quickly convince yourself that this feeling is worth it. Well, you might not because you don't appear to be an idiot.

When I ride with the club I would do about 60 miles each time. By the end of the run the club kind of splits into two groupings ............the racing contingent who have a lashing session over the last 5 miles and there really isnt a point in me trying to keep up. The group in which I ride would average about 18.5 - 19.5 mph over the 60 mile journey, im happy with that but do realise that pack riding plays a large part. There are incline sections where the guys with the nicer bikes and wheelsets just make it look a lot less effort and I suppose thats what got me looking into what a wheelset can bring to the table. If nicer wheels definitely equalled superior riding then id go for them, but if I was wasting my money...........well its money I cant afford to waste.