King, my a**e
Comments
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Paulie W wrote:The margin between success and failure in football, like all sports, is so slim. Literally millimetres in the case of the 'equaliser' in the FA Cup final. Would that extra trophy (no matter how much its lustre has faded) have saved him? In the league, Liverpool dropped something like 28 points in games they dominated (based on shots and possession) - a comfortable 3rd place was some decent finishing and in many cases the width of the woodwork away.
But a Carling Cup and near misses was never going to be enough for FSG - particularly given Kenny's poor handling of the Suarez affair. It was probably enough for most of the fans, along with the often attractive football the team played and Kenny's place in the club's history.
Fair point about the FA Cup - they were close to an equaliser - but in the league I'm not convinced the margin was slim. They were 19 points off 3rd place weren't they - I don't know about possession and shots on target but that kind of margin is not down to luck and it's not a slim margin. They were as close to being relegated as 4th place - in points terms very much mid table.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Hmm. Most of the people here seem to have missed a few points. Namely:
FSG didn't want to hire Dalglish in the first place. He was brought in on the back of 'fan pressure' and was a popularist appointment, initially to guide the club to the end of the 2010/11 season.
Changes made. The club had become a shambles under Benitez. There was little structure in place, there was a huge gap between the board, the fans and the manager. Also, the team had little balance and no depth. All of that has changed. The flare players have gone but the gap between the best and worst is less noticable.
Absenteeism - this season has been one of the worst I can remember for injuries at Anfield (ironically the previous worst was in the 90's when Dalglish was manager!). From the all too brittle Agger and Johnson having their "usual" half season's out to Gerrard's increasingly brittle joints, Lucas being out for 2/3rds of the season and Adam missing for a quarter of the season hasn't helped (especially as Lucas is now the player Benitez thought he was some years back). Of course, add to that Suarez deciding that he should contrive to exclude himself from a quarter of the season, and you have more players out of contention than playing. Had the 'first' midfield of Downing, Gerrard, Lucas and Adam (perhaps with a retained Meireles) been available more often then the results would have looked much different - especially in the second half of the season. (nb, arguably having Johnson injured is a bonus as it allows the excellent Kelly into the team!)
Last year's signings were made on the advice of the FSG appointed Daniel Commolli. OK, KD and the rest of the board/owners would have had to sanction the purchases but you can't blame Dalglish wholly for signings made on the advice of the owner's own appointed 'expert'. That said, of the signings made over the last 18 months, I make the following observations:
Carroll - ok, overpriced (by £30m+) and not everyone's idea of a "class act" in front of goal (including me) but he has started to prove he can deliver through art, craft and skill more than fluke and a heavy left foot which was predomionantly the case at Newcastle (nb, the well taken goal against Chelsea at Wembley still doesn't excuse the equaliser off the back of his head against Cardiff at the same venue though).
Adam - Solid and dependable rather than flair and style. Statistically, and independently thorugh Opta, shown to be one of the best players for "getting back" and keeping the ball in the PL. If only the rest of the midfield had been something like stable around him the season would have been different.
Doni - A curious buy at the time and I can only assume bought to cover the risk that Reina would leave in summer 2011 - which of course he didn't. Had one chance to show his ability and blew it at Blackburn with that red card.
Coates - one for the future. He was bought to spend a couple of seasons learning his craft with the view to replace Carragher during 2012/13 - he's still on track.
Enrique - Perhaps the star buy of summer 2012. Solid and dependable when forwards are running at him, comfortable on the ball going forward. His only real issue is that he isn't the fastest player around so when he gets beaten running towards his own goal, he's beaten. Ask Remirez!
Downing - Perhaps the worst signing of 2011 (but of course still a current international) especially considering that N'Zogbia would have cost £10m less and delivered the same. Still, most people thought he would improve in a "better" team than Villa - whioch only proves you can't be correct all of the time. If only he could cross the ball, or pass it, to a team mate he could be so much better. This year's Pennant.
Bellamy - Class act, almost as entertaining as Robbie Savage in playing style and petulance and worth every penny this season.
Suarez - He was always going to be a challenge. He's caused conflict and trouble at each club he's been at but excelled at Liverpool. If only it hadn't been a racial incident and against Man U. Still a class act though and he could become a ledgend - if he stays.
Henderson - Again bought as one for the future. Unfortunately, injuries to other midfielders (namely Lucas and Gerrard) as well as the unexpected and unfortunate departure of Meireles to Chelski, have thrust him into the first team rather sooner than he should have. He's earned his tag of "Downing 2 - the sequel" for his apparent inability to pass to a team mate. I'm interested to see how he progresses in 2012/13 assuming he doesn't a "sell to buy" casualty.
Regarding a replacement manager well, who knows. I'll throw the name DiMatteo into the mix as, although he's done well at Chelski, I can't see him having a long term future there. O'Neill's not a long term proposition so I think you can rule him out and, as far as our friend from Wigan, I can't even begin to say how wrong Martinez would be.
Personally, I expect a European manager. Of the obvious choices AVB's still 'damaged goods' in the UK so I can't see it being him. I firmly believe that Mouinho has his eyes set rather too firmly on the other end of the A580 to be interested and please don't let it be either Ranieri or Capello.
However, as an outsider (and one that would be very difficult to sell to the Kop). How about a certain Mark Hughes?
Bob0 -
Tom Butcher wrote:Paulie W wrote:The margin between success and failure in football, like all sports, is so slim. Literally millimetres in the case of the 'equaliser' in the FA Cup final. Would that extra trophy (no matter how much its lustre has faded) have saved him? In the league, Liverpool dropped something like 28 points in games they dominated (based on shots and possession) - a comfortable 3rd place was some decent finishing and in many cases the width of the woodwork away.
But a Carling Cup and near misses was never going to be enough for FSG - particularly given Kenny's poor handling of the Suarez affair. It was probably enough for most of the fans, along with the often attractive football the team played and Kenny's place in the club's history.
Fair point about the FA Cup - they were close to an equaliser - but in the league I'm not convinced the margin was slim. They were 19 points off 3rd place weren't they - I don't know about possession and shots on target but that kind of margin is not down to luck and it's not a slim margin. They were as close to being relegated as 4th place - in points terms very much mid table.
The FA Cup final summed up the entire season. Start well, concede a silly goal (ok, some 10 mins earlier than usual) then regroup when it's too late and make it look as if you were unlucky to lose.
Ok, had the second half of the season gone like the first they'd have finished in a CL position. However, with the cup half empty, had the first half of the season gone like the second they'd have been relegated.
I saw all of their games this year (one way or another) and I think home games against Man C, Swansea and Norwich C are the only games I'd say they were unlucky not to win.
Bob0 -
I never thought KD would work out as manager. Liverpool opting for the "magic bean" solution rather than one based on any kind of aptitude - like Shearer to Newcastle.
Besides that, the reason for his sacking is a business one. Pure and simple.
Investors such as FSG aren't interested in the FA Cup or League cup as is doesn't generate the pennies. Qualification for the Champions League (with the bonus of winning the EPL) and the megabucks that it generates is all that matters. They'd have looked at the LFC books for the last few seasons, seen what happens to revenues when the latter stages of the champions league are reached and based their investment decision on that. Theirs is not an investment made on the back of English football heritage and mythology, unfortunately the choice of manager was.
No top 4 finish, no job at the end of the season.Wilier Izoard XP0 -
beverick wrote:I saw all of their games this year (one way or another) and I think home games against Man C, Swansea and Norwich C are the only games I'd say they were unlucky not to win.
It's about perception I suppose - I finished watching a number of games frustrated that we had somehow managed to drop points (the one's you mention but also Blackburn, Villa, Stoke (h), Sunderland) and some just astonished that we had managed to lose (Arsenal, QPR, Stoke (a)). None of which is to say that Liverpool deserved to finish any higher in the table - they have been very poor in the last third of the season in the league.0 -
laurentian wrote:I never thought KD would work out as manager. Liverpool opting for the "magic bean" solution rather than one based on any kind of aptitude - like Shearer to Newcastle.
Besides that, the reason for his sacking is a business one. Pure and simple.
Investors such as FSG aren't interested in the FA Cup or League cup as is doesn't generate the pennies. Qualification for the Champions League (with the bonus of winning the EPL) and the megabucks that it generates is all that matters. They'd have looked at the LFC books for the last few seasons, seen what happens to revenues when the latter stages of the champions league are reached and based their investment decision on that. Theirs is not an investment made on the back of English football heritage and mythology, unfortunately the choice of manager was.
No top 4 finish, no job at the end of the season.
To be fair Dalglish does have a slightly better managerial track record than Shearer! But you're right is was a 'romantic' decision rather than a considered business one.0 -
bartman100 wrote:You can still enjoy 'proper' football if you turn away from the tiresome Premier League for a while - go and watch Bristol Rovers, or even better Bath City.
I do get down to watch the gas a few times a year. Usually pretty good fun. If the game is shite, there's always someone up for a laugh in the crowd. Last resort is a nasty pasty.0 -
The Suarez incident and his media handling cost him his job pure and simple. He didn't do himself any favours spending £100m+ on a load of crocks either mind and then failed to deliver CL soccer. The big rumour is that AVB has already been approached. I wish it could be Steve Kean though.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0
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BRING BACK RAFFY!
'dont forget lads, one evertonian is worth twenty kopites'0 -
RichN95 wrote:philthy3 wrote:The big rumour is that AVB has already been approached. I wish it could be Steve Kean though.
Wigna have said they've given them permission to talk to Martinez - so it's going to be him.
Not necessarily so. Wigan have just gone public with the fact they have given LFC permission to talk to him. Personally, I think Martinez will have better opportunities than LFC. There's a lot of work to do at LFC; overpriced talent, an aging squad and a PR disaster. It's probably too big a leap for him at the moment. As for the LFC supporters thinking they're going to get Pep Guadiola; think again. Liverpool were once a great club, but they haven't been great for many seasons now. They're in with the rest of the once great clubs who only have history to show how dominant they used to be.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
RichN95 wrote:philthy3 wrote:The big rumour is that AVB has already been approached. I wish it could be Steve Kean though.
Wigna have said they've given them permission to talk to Martinez - so it's going to be him.
The issue there is whether such a big club will suit him, or is he the kind of manager who does best at a smaller club making the most of fairly modest resources? Same comments apply to Brendan Rodgers who's also in the frame for Anfield (especially now that Redknapp is staying put at Spurs).
David"It is not enough merely to win; others must lose." - Gore Vidal0 -
DavidBelcher wrote:RichN95 wrote:philthy3 wrote:The big rumour is that AVB has already been approached. I wish it could be Steve Kean though.
Wigna have said they've given them permission to talk to Martinez - so it's going to be him.
The issue there is whether such a big club will suit him, or is he the kind of manager who does best at a smaller club making the most of fairly modest resources? Same comments apply to Brendan Rodgers who's also in the frame for Anfield (especially now that Redknapp is staying put at Spurs).
David
Rogers has declined the offer to talk to Liverpool.
With regards to Philthy's comments above, I would say Liverpool is a perfect job for Pep Guadiola. He's had massive success with one of the world's top clubs this would give him an opportunity to make one of history's other great clubs back into a top team. Some people live for challenges like that. They're not a club who's past glories are distant memories and with a few decent signings and a bit of a clearout they could be back in with a chance of European glory even if they can't win the premiership. I don't think there's any chance of him ending up there though. I'd like to see Martinez go there though, I think he has deserved a chance at a big club* and plays the right type of football.
* meaning with a successful history and a bit more money to spend.0 -
Guardiola has just left Barcelona who are in the CL next year, why would he go to LFC who aren't? Simple answer he wouldn't and LFCs past glories are distant memories I'm afraid.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0
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philthy3 wrote:Guardiola has just left Barcelona who are in the CL next year, why would he go to LFC who aren't? Simple answer he wouldn't and LFCs past glories are distant memories I'm afraid.
I'm no Liverpool fan but to call a 2005 CL win and a 2nd place league finish with four points from top as recently as 2009 a distant memory is nonsense.0 -
Also when you have won everything and have had the perfect team there is a real possibility you are ready for a different kind of challenge.verylonglegs wrote:philthy3 wrote:Guardiola has just left Barcelona who are in the CL next year, why would he go to LFC who aren't? Simple answer he wouldn't and LFCs past glories are distant memories I'm afraid.
I'm no Liverpool fan but to call a 2005 CL win and a 2nd place league finish with four points from top as recently as 2009 a distant memory is nonsense.
I think a lot of the media talk is wide of the mark. I can't see Martinez at Liverpool - 3 years of barely scraping by do little to prove he is a manager deserving of a top team. Equally, Rodgers needs more than one season of success in the Premiership to prove his quality.
Hopefully AVB will get the nod. He will have real desire to prove critics wrong, he has held pressurised posts already and he has a youthful team (who ever said Liverpool is an aging team was having a joke??) rather than a bunch of prima donnas to manage.
That said does anyone really know what FSG plan when they are sat all the way across the Atlantic?0 -
nathancom wrote:
Also when you have won everything and have had the perfect team there is a real possibility you are ready for a different kind of challenge.verylonglegs wrote:philthy3 wrote:Guardiola has just left Barcelona who are in the CL next year, why would he go to LFC who aren't? Simple answer he wouldn't and LFCs past glories are distant memories I'm afraid.
I'm no Liverpool fan but to call a 2005 CL win and a 2nd place league finish with four points from top as recently as 2009 a distant memory is nonsense.
I think a lot of the media talk is wide of the mark. I can't see Martinez at Liverpool - 3 years of barely scraping by do little to prove he is a manager deserving of a top team. Equally, Rodgers needs more than one season of success in the Premiership to prove his quality.
Hopefully AVB will get the nod. He will have real desire to prove critics wrong, he has held pressurised posts already and he has a youthful team (who ever said Liverpool is an aging team was having a joke??) rather than a bunch of prima donnas to manage.
That said does anyone really know what FSG plan when they are sat all the way across the Atlantic?
AVB hasn't even been approached and any report of him going to Liverpool would be well wide of the mark.
There was even word of AVB having flown to the states, bunch of arse.
Apparently he woudn't touch Liverpool with a ten foot barge pole, so he'll probably be named as the manager on Monday.0
