Technological Advances Who Gains?

tim_wand

Many moons ago when I first started driving, old A series Mini's and CVH engined Fords, you used to be able to find your way around most cars with a good set of ring spanners or a socket set and a screw driver.

Nowadays its all sealed black boxes , Ecu's and multipoint injection systems, you havent got a chance unless your a trained technician or taking it back to a dealership.

With Di2 Ui2 and EPS are bikes heading the same way, and is it necessary for our benefit. Back in the day when I started riding bikes I could fix anything with the flat or box spanner they came with and a puncture kit.

Now I ve got 4 different bottom bracket tools, 2 different cassette tools, and what looks like a junkies shoot up kit to service my brakes and forks. I ve not even gone anywhere near electronic groupsets.

I would consider myself a competent home mechanic having built up many bikes from framesets, and I m seriously considering setting up a home business , renovating and repairing bikes.

Will this business have any sort of longevity when we all adopt electronic groupsets in a few years?

Then again one of the hardest things I fix are Sturley Archer hubs and some of the old guys in our village wont ride anything else.

pinno

OBD ! - On Board Diagnostics, first came into widespread use in the nineties. That little flap under the dash or in the fuse/relay compartment reveals a bus connection that you can use to plug in your OBD scanner, now updated to OBD2. All cars have them. It can tell you service intervals and what needs servicing such as Oil and Filters/air con, faults, fault codes, erase fault codes, tuning diagnostics etc etc.
For the silly unreliable cheap:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Diagnosti ... 3f0fcf54d1

To the ridiculously expensive:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Snap-Ethos-12 ... 460351ded6

Best get an OBD2 specific to your car, not a generic "does 'everymake' " scanner. It will make you a whizz mechanic and save you a fortune.
So that will be it: OBD scanners for bikes- you will benefit 'cos when you have that gadget in your hand you will have the POWA! kno-what-i-mean-init?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BRv9wGf ... detailpage lol

Pross

Not sure if that's what he was asking. I read it more that he is thinking of doing some home based bike servicing and whether it is worthwhile with electronic shifting coming in. IMHO it is going to take a long time until that is the norm and the bulk of people who are likely to ask someone else to overhaul their bike for them are unlikely to be going for fancy electronic gearing so still worth doing it.

estampida

If you rake through some old geezers tool box he has old tools, weird spoke keys, only the left hand bb tap, strange free hub tools.... all things that are pretty much useless, unless its that odd job once in a decade

its the power of a society geared towards consumption, and they have to be new and better, not similar or inferior

but those old cars, my mini always need heaps of welding to get through an mot, the non servo brakes on drums (10" wheels) were shoddy at best, the way the distributor cap filled with water when it rained, i could go on...........

modern ones built with the bmw process make that car a better model, rain holes in the doors for a start......

and ford death rattle is still alive on the streets today, but the block is still used in high performance kits (upgraded everything, inc cylinder head), propelled by consumption

your new car - hit ebay and get the cable for it, plug in the laptop it tells you what's wrong, a thermostat hasn't changed it's just under that plastic cover so it is nice and clean to work on - is that progress

rick_chasey

pinarello001 wrote:

OBD ! - On Board Diagnostics, first came into widespread use in the nineties. That little flap under the dash or in the fuse/relay compartment reveals a bus connection that you can use to plug in your OBD scanner, now updated to OBD2. All cars have them. It can tell you service intervals and what needs servicing such as Oil and Filters/air con, faults, fault codes, erase fault codes, tuning diagnostics etc etc.
For the silly unreliable cheap:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Diagnosti ... 3f0fcf54d1

To the ridiculously expensive:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Snap-Ethos-12 ... 460351ded6

Best get an OBD2 specific to your car, not a generic "does 'everymake' " scanner. It will make you a whizz mechanic and save you a fortune.
So that will be it: OBD scanners for bikes- you will benefit 'cos when you have that gadget in your hand you will have the POWA! kno-what-i-mean-init?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BRv9wGf ... detailpage lol

My car once had the emergency oil sign come on. You know the one. Stop immediately. Don't do anything, immediately get recovered. Was pretty sure it wasn't so just drove it to the garage.

Turns out it was the 'sensor' that was broken. They charged me £250 to replace it.

Absolute joke.

snoopsmydogg

OP think it could be a while before electronic shifting finds it way down to the masses but its just a case of moving with the times.

There are still garages out there that believe in fixing rather than replacing getting repeat custom. If you can get a good name doing what you do then why not give it a go? If more bikes start going electronic then you will possibly be in a situation to learn with it. Although more than likely with most electronics it could be a case of replace and set up when something fails. wouldnt think the bread and butter work like servicing etc would change much.

Gizmodo

Cars: My mate has an all electronic Renault thingy - electronic automatic gearbox, electronic hand brake etc etc. 2 weeks ago his wife comes to take the 2 kids out in the car, the dashboard lights up like a Christmas tree, it won't go into gear and it won't release the handbrake. RAC recover it to the dealer, dealer "fixes" it. Last week, his wife is 45 minutes away from home, gets in the car to bring the kids home and guess what......

Bikes: Even if [no when] electronic gears become popular (and as a techie I will be keen to jump on the band wagon) the rest of the bike is still a "black box" to the likes of me. OK I can change the inner tubes, I can lube my chain, but I wouldn't dream of changing/lubing my bottom bracket or trying to replace the bearings in my hubs. I know "how" to do it in theory, but like you might know how to program a computer "in theory", would you do it? I would prefer to pay my LBS to grease my nipples whilst I get on with what I know I'm good at and I know I can make money doing.

I'll run your web site for your home business if you'll service my bike :shock:

beverick

Hmm. Good question.

As a service provider, unless you have access to a sufficiently large market for specialist service (ie maintaining old kit!) you'll have to service all kinds of equipment.

Also, remember that not only will the number of old syle bikes (and hence your market) reduce year on year, as the market declines the number of people who are willing to maintain their own bike will most likely increase as a percentage. So you'll be looking to operate in a decreasing part of a declining pool.

Also, your main issue will be price, or at least the cost of your labour. Will someone be willing to pay you a "living wage" to repair £50 of antique bike. Personally I don't think so. I'm not going to pay anyone £30-£35 p.h. (working on a low, 20% margin to give minimum wage) to repair a wreck. Would you pay someone 'over the odds' to fit a pair of cotter pins into a 25 year old chainset?

The final bu&&eration factor, as I am finding now is that, as the pace of technology increases you'll find it harder to get replacement parts. So, unless you want to build your own groupsets, I don't think the model is sustainable unless you maintain a position in the market, say 2 releases behind current version. This will mean that you can operate in a market that doesn't compete with the 'big boys' such as Evans, EBC or Half*ords (language Timothy!) and undercuts the LBS on price and beats them on service.

It also means that you'll have to evolve into new technology but just a few years after it's adopted.

So I think the answer's no, it's not a viable model in the longer term.

BTW, I have a 45 year old MGB. If it stops, I merely pick up what's fallen off, re-attach it to the car and drive off. I also have a 1 year old BMW. If that stops I call the RAC and then listen to the radio until thay arrive!

Bob

Pross

Gizmodo wrote:

I would prefer to pay my LBS to grease my nipples whilst I get on with what I know I'm good at and I know I can make money doing.

Each to their own, I'd rather pay Nicole Scherzinger to grease my nipples!

Redhog14

I susupect that the adoption of Di2 and the like will make maintenance easier and increase reliability, in a similar fashion to the motor industry.

I too had an old mini and learned every trick required to keep it running, nowadays the sealed component method of manufacture of car parts means the "mechanic" removes the part and replaces it wholesale with a new one, they dont strip and rebuild any more. So when, as I beleive we all will, we end up with sealed electronic drivetrains we wont have to change cables 3 times a year or worry about stripping and regreasing regularily; we will fit and forget. At some point something will tell us it is worn and we get a new one out the box and replace it ourselves. I fear that the mechanics are a dying breed.

pinno

Gizmodo wrote:

I'll run your web site for your home business if you'll service my bike :shock:

Yep, absolutely no problem - I need a proper website. The only downside is that you will have to post it to me - I live in Scotland. Else cycle up here with it. Aint nothing I havent done/cant do with a bike. Never paid an LBS for anything except a wheel build and the extraction of an old F.A.G BB (unless it is electronic lol). Then I learnt the art of cross laced wheel building then the technology overtook me so that building wheels is pointless 'cos factory built wheels are A1.

Years ago, I cycled on some scaffolding with 2 dustbin lids strapped to it. I averaged X mph and my physical exersion was Y. Now I ride on Carbon and my average speed has increased from X, but my physical exersion is still Y, only I do it a bit more comfortably. Why the technology? 'Cos Bike coy. sais you'll be a faster and a much better cyclist, bullsh1t bullsh1t bullsh1t.

To all the car problems: You can carry an OBD2 scanner with you to sort out that oil light problem and get you home on a 'default' function, laptops are clumsy and you need a power source and the knowledge to use the very complex software. I am giong to post a 'car fixing' post to help all you troubled motorists in the workshop forum.

outcastjack

Redhog14 wrote:

I susupect that the adoption of Di2 and the like will make maintenance easier and increase reliability, in a similar fashion to the motor industry.

I too had an old mini and learned every trick required to keep it running, nowadays the sealed component method of manufacture of car parts means the "mechanic" removes the part and replaces it wholesale with a new one, they dont strip and rebuild any more. So when, as I beleive we all will, we end up with sealed electronic drivetrains we wont have to change cables 3 times a year or worry about stripping and regreasing regularily; we will fit and forget. At some point something will tell us it is worn and we get a new one out the box and replace it ourselves. I fear that the mechanics are a dying breed.

My real objection to this, is the enironmental impact, at a time we are becoming increasingly aware of what a stupid amount we chuck into landfill, manufacturers are making products with sealed units which require wholesale replacement when any component fails, which exacerbate the problem.

pinno

Redhog14 wrote:

I fear that the mechanics are a dying breed.

Yep. Mercedes re-branded and revamped all their franchises world wide. The downside is that you have a whole load of experienced mechanics who lost their jobs if they were not prepared for re-training to the high spec diagnostics and accepted the performance related pay deals. Overnight they became fitters, the rest became so disgruntled to the extent that you could get a 4CD set of Mercedes's complete car maintenance, parts catalogue, exploded diagrams and extensive repair and diagnostic tools for £2.99 or less on e-bay, for every model since 1957.
Until of course Mercedes threatened to sue e-bay. You can still get them from Eastern Block countries.

Thats fine you may think as a consumer (progress) - you get your car serviced cheaper. Nope. For the e-class Merc, the service fees are £575 and upwards plus VAT. A 193 point check they say ?! At least 150 of those checks are easy done visually or with a tap with a screwdriver. Before this, a full service for the E-class started at £175.
You cannot go elsewhere whilst its new or you will invalidate the warranty. A 5 year warranty is going to cost you 3.5K in service fees alone - before tyres, MOT, sundries, bulbs etc. Never mind repair costs after the warranty period of around £75 per hour not incl. VAT !!

Owner of brand new Audi A8 walks into the VW/Audi service centre in Brighton. Electric windows go down and stay down. The mechanic's (my friend) response to the disgruntled owner "I'll get the window back up for you, but you will have to come back in 3 months because its all blue tooth and we have'nt received the new software yet to re-program it"!!
Technology is all very well but it is often deliberately taken out of joe publics hands so that the spin off maintenance, repair and/or replace makes a profit for them.
Fact: In 2009 Ford (Fixed Or Repaired Dailly) did not make a profit selling cars. They did however make a huge profit on spare parts and service packs!
For those who took the time to read this labouriously long thread, I will provide you a lovely pic of the Merc I restored!

tim_wand

My thinking was this, After a bit of up evil in my working life, I now have a contracted job for 16 hours a week, I then pick up on average 1 to 2 days a week Cover supervisior work (Teaching). Obviously this second source is not available in School Holidays, and I dont care what any teacher says, thats a lot of time off.

I live in an old police house, with stables and kennels (Even cells in the cellar) and have all sorts of space to set up a spray booth and workshop. I also live in Newark on trent, which has more Auto jumbles and Auctions than you can shake a stick at. Last year I picked up a Colnago Columbus SLX frame for a £5 from the auto jumble and someone who didnt know what they had.

I want to renovate frames and repair bikes, The LBS in Newark went to the wall because of high shop rates and people who wanted old bikes fixed for pennies.

I dont mind that as I love working on bikes, Would look to make the real money on reconditioning stuff.

As previously mentioned I can do pretty much anything bike mechanics wise, but would it be wise to get Ala Alf and Theresea Webb an NVQ (They live quite close to me) or is Cytech worthwhile.

pinno

Ah ha ! I'll make you money/use up all of your spare time

A) Do some contract work for the prison service
Offer specialist holidays for the household cavalry
C) Offer NVQ's in
1 - Bike maintenance and repair
2- Prison Management security and catering
3 - Equine studies
4 - Animal welfare
D) Open up an overspill outlet for Battersea dogs home

Ching ching !
If you proceed with this, I will expect commission and or an advisory role, ta.

Hoopdriver

tim wand wrote:

My thinking was this, After a bit of up evil in my working life, I now have a contracted job for 16 hours a week, I then pick up on average 1 to 2 days a week Cover supervisior work (Teaching). Obviously this second source is not available in School Holidays, and I dont care what any teacher says, thats a lot of time off.

I live in an old police house, with stables and kennels (Even cells in the cellar) and have all sorts of space to set up a spray booth and workshop. I also live in Newark on trent, which has more Auto jumbles and Auctions than you can shake a stick at. Last year I picked up a Colnago Columbus SLX frame for a £5 from the auto jumble and someone who didnt know what they had.

I want to renovate frames and repair bikes, The LBS in Newark went to the wall because of high shop rates and people who wanted old bikes fixed for pennies.

I dont mind that as I love working on bikes, Would look to make the real money on reconditioning stuff.

As previously mentioned I can do pretty much anything bike mechanics wise, but would it be wise to get Ala Alf and Theresea Webb an NVQ (They live quite close to me) or is Cytech worthwhile.

Alf and Theresa Webb at The Bike Inn do City & Guilds, not NVQ.

I took their City & Guilds course a few years ago (2007) and really enjoyed it. There's always things you can learn or at least with which you can refamiliarize yourself and having the credential, as I understand it, does give you some kind of legal standing as an 'expert' which would probably help with getting insurance or if - God forbid - you got sued.

xixang

pinarello001 wrote:

You cannot go elsewhere whilst its new or you will invalidate the warranty. A 5 year warranty is going to cost you 3.5K in service fees alone - before tyres, MOT, sundries, bulbs etc. Never mind repair costs after the warranty period of around £75 per hour not incl. VAT !!

I'm sure this is illegal under EU law, as long as an independant garage services in accordance with manufacturers criteria.

http://www.motorcodes.co.uk/garage/the- ... warranties

pinno

xixang wrote:

pinarello001 wrote:

You cannot go elsewhere whilst its new or you will invalidate the warranty. A 5 year warranty is going to cost you 3.5K in service fees alone - before tyres, MOT, sundries, bulbs etc. Never mind repair costs after the warranty period of around £75 per hour not incl. VAT !!

I'm sure this is illegal under EU law, as long as an independant garage services in accordance with manufacturers criteria.

http://www.motorcodes.co.uk/garage/the- ... warranties

Mercedes are just awkward baskets, whilst it is true that under EU law, theoretically you can go elsewhere but they can easily find loopholes. For example, since 2006, the Bosch fuel injection system for Mercs has specific diagnostic software and an alternative dealer is very unlikely to afford it. If you decide to exercise the warranty having had it serviced/repaired outside of the network, all they need to do is find 1 single service marker that has been missed and then you are stuffed.
The key is - Never buy a new car.