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Zipp Firecast/Standard

rpd_steverpd_steve Posts: 361
edited May 2012 in Road buying advice
So I'm looking into some aero wheels for racing/fast group race training rides. And before the normal 'do you need them' bla bla starts they are for 50 mile+ rides/races with an average speed of 20mph + in a bunch.

I get the slight aero difference between the firecast and not, and having and aero background from my degree asked zipp for any wind tunnel data and they gave it to me to be fair to them! The Cd differance at yaw angles is not nearly so much different as they would have you belive, IMHO its a fair bit of market refreshment - though there is a 0.8% advantage in the FC 404 to the normal 404 from the data I have seen.

So what am I missing? I can get normal 2012 Zipp 404s for £1099 for the set, but the firecast 404s cost £2400 a set? Is there any other differance?

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  • bristolpetebristolpete Posts: 2,255
    Had some second hand 404 back in 2010, very fast. A mate who is on Fire Crest says they are incredible and fast and they react to side winds and frontal wind better. I believe him. Smashing wheels.

    If you have not seen them, there is a pair for sale in the classifieds, which look MINT ! Oddly enough he is in my part of the world, but cant afford them despite the price and not for me....

    http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40049&t=12850613
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,817
    Promising miracles is what the industry has to do to convince you to part from your hard earned cash.
    The curved profile should ensure a slightly less iratic behaviour in cross winds, but don't expect miracles. The price tag is simply ridiculous... they are on the spotlight as they win lots of races on Zipps, but really, Tom Boonen would have won Roubaix with the 303 or with a set of Nemesis 13 mm deep tubolars just as well (as he did 3 times before). Ouside TTs it's never the equipment that wins a race
  • bristolpetebristolpete Posts: 2,255
    Promising miracles is what the industry has to do to convince you to part from your hard earned cash.
    The curved profile should ensure a slightly less iratic behaviour in cross winds, but don't expect miracles. The price tag is simply ridiculous... they are on the spotlight as they win lots of races on Zipps, but really, Tom Boonen would have won Roubaix with the 303 or with a set of Nemesis 13 mm deep tubolars just as well (as he did 3 times before). Ouside TTs it's never the equipment that wins a race

    Very true, but we love an aspirational and inspirational sport and if running deep section means you think you get more from the bike then great. I have been on deep section for three years, but this year, have decided to stop riding them as I was enjoying cycling less and less. What you don't realise before you ride deep is that side winds, front winds, rain, hills etc all affect how you ride and I was riding with less and less confidence especially big descents in the wet with no brakes.

    The tipping point was when I rode my training loop with this years PB and was on 'normal' section wheels.

    I have always said the perception of speed is enhanced on deep section and it is nice when they make a lovely noise.

    That said if you 'crit' race and cycle round and round in cirlces go for it.
  • keyser__sozekeyser__soze Posts: 2,066
    RPD Steve wrote:
    I can get normal 2012 Zipp 404s for £1099 for the set

    Could you share where?
    "Mummy Mummy, when will I grow up?"
    "Don't be silly son, you're a bloke, you'll never grow up"
  • majormantramajormantra Posts: 2,094
    RPD Steve wrote:
    So what am I missing? I can get normal 2012 Zipp 404s for £1099 for the set, but the firecast 404s cost £2400 a set? Is there any other differance?

    The Firecrest is a fundamentally different wheel as it's a true carbon clincher vs. the alu rim bonded to carbon of the old 404. The weight saving is only around 100g though and of course the old 404 will brake better with the alu braking surface.

    You are paying a lot to have the latest and greatest with the 404FC. To be honest I probably wouldn't buy either.
  • rpd_steverpd_steve Posts: 361
    RPD Steve wrote:
    I can get normal 2012 Zipp 404s for £1099 for the set

    Could you share where?

    http://www.primera-sports.com/products/ ... 10704.aspx

    I was also considering Mavic Cosmic Carbone SL in the same type of thing... I do like the alloy brake track for the wet etc.
  • rozzer32rozzer32 Posts: 3,616
    Right I know you've told no one to say it but I am going to, you don't need them!!

    You say for fast rides and races, what cat rider are you?

    Cav would beat me in a sprint if he was on a bike with downtube shifters and 40 spoke wheels.

    Wiggins would beat me in a TT on the same bike as above even if I was riding with full aero gear.

    Why do you want to spend up to £2400 on a set of wheels that will give you a few watts advantage at speed. If you're getting dropped from the fast group these wheels won't change things.

    If you really want to spend money then get yourself a coach. £1100 would get you a lot of coaching. If you have £2400 then get a power meter and a coach. This would give you a much bigger benefit.

    And I bet my bottom dollar you would go faster getting a coach then you would just getting wheels.

    (rant over)
    ***** Pro Tour Pundit Champion 2020, 2018, 2017 & 2011 *****
  • gabriel959gabriel959 Posts: 4,227
    Aren't power meters overrated anyway? A lot of pro riders prefer to go on feel.
    x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
    Commuting / Winter rides - Jamis Renegade Expert
    Pootling / Offroad - All-City Macho Man Disc
    Fast rides Cannondale SuperSix Ultegra
  • majormantramajormantra Posts: 2,094
    gabriel959 wrote:
    Aren't power meters overrated anyway? A lot of pro riders prefer to go on feel.

    Citation needed. The vast majority of pros (at least at ProTour level) use power meters all or most of the time AFAIK. From a coach or DS's point of view it's by far the best metric of performance.
  • rozzer32rozzer32 Posts: 3,616
    gabriel959 wrote:
    Aren't power meters overrated anyway? A lot of pro riders prefer to go on feel.

    Have you just made that up?

    I'd say 99% of pro riders use power meters. Some only use them for training and then race on feel but most use them in races too.
    ***** Pro Tour Pundit Champion 2020, 2018, 2017 & 2011 *****
  • gabriel959gabriel959 Posts: 4,227
    fair enough, too much twitter me thinks :D now that you say it I think it was that some only use it in training and race on feel.
    x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
    Commuting / Winter rides - Jamis Renegade Expert
    Pootling / Offroad - All-City Macho Man Disc
    Fast rides Cannondale SuperSix Ultegra
  • greasedscotsmangreasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    Don't think the OP is a pro. If he was, he wouldn't be asking what wheel to buy. :wink:
  • okgookgo Posts: 4,368
    Why does it matter what Category you are?

    I have some alu 404 clinchers, and they're great, really notice a difference in holding speed, and going downhill is a different ballgame with my race bike. I haven't done much racing but I value speed downhill (and carrying that speed) as much as uphill. In some races I've found that my only and best chance of moving up the pack was going downhill as I was going faster than most of the others (weight, aero bike, wheels etc), so for that alone I am glad I bought them.

    The only upgrade I would make would be to the firecrest tubs, which weigh 1280g a set, which is crazy, I wouldn't bother with the clinchers which are similar weight and I doubt much better.
    Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com
  • greasedscotsmangreasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    okgo wrote:
    Why does it matter what Category you are?

    It doesn't. But saying a pro does this or use a particular bit of kit isn't really relevant.

    I can see Rozzer32's point, but I'd just buy whatever wheels look the coolest! 8)
  • napoleondnapoleond Posts: 5,990
    I sold my Zipps to some poor unsuspecting sap as I was going in a different direction (Campag Bora 2). They were ace! I did hold speed better and really noticed it on the front of a bunch/attack. It was the 606 combo in tubular.
    That said, my best result came when I punctured, couldnt be arsed to change the tub so went with a cheapo Alex Rim front and 32h Open Pro powertap rear...
    Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
    ABCC Cycling Coach
  • bristolpetebristolpete Posts: 2,255
    NapoleonD wrote:
    I sold my Zipps to some poor unsuspecting sap as I was going in a different direction (Campag Bora 2). They were ace! I did hold speed better and really noticed it on the front of a bunch/attack. It was the 606 combo in tubular.
    That said, my best result came when I punctured, couldnt be arsed to change the tub so went with a cheapo Alex Rim front and 32h Open Pro powertap rear...

    Was I the sap who bought a 404 from you ? :mrgreen:

    I agree with all points here, but where I am at and the Mendips for me dont really inspire confidence on deep section. As before, in a moment of clarity, when I nailed a PB loop on 'normal section' I thought time for a change....
  • napoleondnapoleond Posts: 5,990
    NapoleonD wrote:
    I sold my Zipps to some poor unsuspecting sap as I was going in a different direction (Campag Bora 2). They were ace! I did hold speed better and really noticed it on the front of a bunch/attack. It was the 606 combo in tubular.
    That said, my best result came when I punctured, couldnt be arsed to change the tub so went with a cheapo Alex Rim front and 32h Open Pro powertap rear...

    Was I the sap who bought a 404 from you ? :mrgreen:

    I agree with all points here, but where I am at and the Mendips for me dont really inspire confidence on deep section. As before, in a moment of clarity, when I nailed a PB loop on 'normal section' I thought time for a change....

    Oop, sorry Pete, didn't see you there!
    Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
    ABCC Cycling Coach
  • napoleondnapoleond Posts: 5,990
    I do have to say though I loved riding with my deep sections and would defo have some again...
    Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
    ABCC Cycling Coach
  • giant_mangiant_man Posts: 6,878
    NapoleonD wrote:
    I sold my Zipps to some poor unsuspecting sap as I was going in a different direction (Campag Bora 2). They were ace! I did hold speed better and really noticed it on the front of a bunch/attack. It was the 606 combo in tubular.
    That said, my best result came when I punctured, couldnt be arsed to change the tub so went with a cheapo Alex Rim front and 32h Open Pro powertap rear...

    Was I the sap who bought a 404 from you ? :mrgreen:

    I agree with all points here, but where I am at and the Mendips for me dont really inspire confidence on deep section. As before, in a moment of clarity, when I nailed a PB loop on 'normal section' I thought time for a change....
    Ha ha classic! :oops:
  • bristolpetebristolpete Posts: 2,255
    giant man wrote:
    NapoleonD wrote:
    I sold my Zipps to some poor unsuspecting sap as I was going in a different direction (Campag Bora 2). They were ace! I did hold speed better and really noticed it on the front of a bunch/attack. It was the 606 combo in tubular.
    That said, my best result came when I punctured, couldnt be arsed to change the tub so went with a cheapo Alex Rim front and 32h Open Pro powertap rear...

    Was I the sap who bought a 404 from you ? :mrgreen:

    I agree with all points here, but where I am at and the Mendips for me dont really inspire confidence on deep section. As before, in a moment of clarity, when I nailed a PB loop on 'normal section' I thought time for a change....
    Ha ha classic! :oops:

    Im not offended. I am a royal sap who has spent more than enough on bike kit over the years :lol::lol::lol:
  • Cornish-JCornish-J Posts: 978
    i'm using 404 firecrests tubs .. (not firecast)

    i used cosmic carbones before that and the zipps do seem to get upto, and hold speed much easier.

    Not sure i'd buy them again though, a lot of money to essentially look kool. As previously stated, i'm sure you can get more bang for the buck by investing in different things - but if you have the money and you fancy them then go for it, try and pick up a set second hand on ebay ... dont pay 2400!!
  • napoleondnapoleond Posts: 5,990
    giant man wrote:
    NapoleonD wrote:
    I sold my Zipps to some poor unsuspecting sap as I was going in a different direction (Campag Bora 2). They were ace! I did hold speed better and really noticed it on the front of a bunch/attack. It was the 606 combo in tubular.
    That said, my best result came when I punctured, couldnt be arsed to change the tub so went with a cheapo Alex Rim front and 32h Open Pro powertap rear...

    Was I the sap who bought a 404 from you ? :mrgreen:

    I agree with all points here, but where I am at and the Mendips for me dont really inspire confidence on deep section. As before, in a moment of clarity, when I nailed a PB loop on 'normal section' I thought time for a change....
    Ha ha classic! :oops:

    Im not offended. I am a royal sap who has spent more than enough on bike kit over the years :lol::lol::lol:

    Bristolpete had forgotten he did in fact buy my 808 rear too...
    Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
    ABCC Cycling Coach
  • bristolpetebristolpete Posts: 2,255
    NapoleonD wrote:
    giant man wrote:
    NapoleonD wrote:
    I sold my Zipps to some poor unsuspecting sap as I was going in a different direction (Campag Bora 2). They were ace! I did hold speed better and really noticed it on the front of a bunch/attack. It was the 606 combo in tubular.
    That said, my best result came when I punctured, couldnt be arsed to change the tub so went with a cheapo Alex Rim front and 32h Open Pro powertap rear...

    Was I the sap who bought a 404 from you ? :mrgreen:

    I agree with all points here, but where I am at and the Mendips for me dont really inspire confidence on deep section. As before, in a moment of clarity, when I nailed a PB loop on 'normal section' I thought time for a change....
    Ha ha classic! :oops:

    Im not offended. I am a royal sap who has spent more than enough on bike kit over the years :lol::lol::lol:

    Bristolpete had forgotten he did in fact buy my 808 rear too...

    My real name is Barry Scott 8)
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