amateur racing, so many new racers, where's it going?

sunburntknees

maryka wrote:

sunburntknees wrote:

But if every organiser of a bog-standard Hillingdon crit has to deal with a few dozen emails each time, don't you think that adds up to a lot more hassle? If it were me, I'd probably do away with the online entry -- which ironically was probably designed to save time and effort but might lead to more -- and just make it EOL, no email address or phone number provided, either show up on the day and race or don't.

I accept that I appear to be in the minority here about that, at least on this thread. Fair enough.

I'm not sure about other systems (eg. BC) as I've not used any but, as you will know from Surrey League events, Rider HQ shows you exactly how many places there are available in the race and therefore there is no ambiguity. The other advantage of online advance entry is that if the weather is bad and half the riders decide they don't fancy it, then the organisers do not lose out financially.

With regard to repeat enquiries, if you are busy then why not leave a helpful voicemail or automated email response with the answer to the FAQ?

mamba80

Richard L : i dont need to update myself on anything actually.

Organising an event can be very satisfying but the points you raise are a bit wide of the mark really.

NEG and BC Comms get 40p/mile (very well deserved too) and that will be for their entire journey + the race mileage, the Organiser/marshalls etc get nothing, yet these guys have to get to the event, drive the course, put out flags and collect it all back in and then get it back to the region but for some reason their cars run on free petrol and have no running costs either!

I know regions carry stock but it will be the Organiser who has to get it or arrange for some one else too ... again time and money.

Reduced BC membership.... how much is that then? Membership is £24 or £68 if you race? not talking bankers bonuses here are we? an organiser would spend that and a whole lot more in petrol for one event, infact an organiser could be in the situation where they pay BC membership in order to put on a BC event...go figure that one?

I did not say that organisers should be paid (though i cant see any logic in not paying them) i said BC need to raise their status and one way would be to introduce an expenses package, that BC pay.
What about BC providing a service where the rider phones them instead of the organiser with their "suggestions" and questions that have already been answered if they bothered to read the event website or start sheet etc ?

I have at first hand witnessed the amount of hassle and work organisers do and put up with and unless BC take their heads out of the sand then the band of keen organisers will diminish to a tiny handful.

Tom Butcher

BC mileage is actually 30p a mile for volunteers. Organisers are within their rights to pay themselves expenses - I did this year at the same rate - I haven't in the past and I know not all organisers do but I wasn't prepared to subsidise the hobby of the riders most of whom have considerably nicer bikes than me !

Agree that the free BC membership is a bit poor - bronze only - the bare minimum they could offer.

richard_l

Tom Butcher wrote:

BC mileage is actually 30p a mile for volunteers. Organisers are within their rights to pay themselves expenses - I did this year at the same rate - I haven't in the past and I know not all organisers do but I wasn't prepared to subsidise the hobby of the riders most of whom have considerably nicer bikes than me !

Agree that the free BC membership is a bit poor - bronze only - the bare minimum they could offer.

Tom - there is not a set rate for each Region to advise is paid to Commissaires - each Region can recommend a reimbursement rate that Comms receive (which is usually followed) but there are some Comms/organisers that also agree quite amicably a higher or lower rate.

As you say, organisers can also choose to pay/reimburse themselves a reasonable expense for all the time/cost/fuel incurred in promoting an event, in the same way that the organiser usually gets reimbursed from their clubs or from the entry fees for the costs of HQ, First Aid, etc etc.

shockedsoshocked

A friend is trying to organise the Divs for my region. Turns out a guy sat on the SAG (who advises what traffic management requirements he needs) actually runs the traffic management company who provides the people. Jesus wept.

Tom Butcher

Richard - I understood 30p was a BC rate and that it had just gone up from 27p per mile - but it was a track comm that told me and looking on the BC site -
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/track/article/trast-Track-News - maybe that just refers to the track ?

Pross

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

A friend is trying to organise the Divs for my region. Turns out a guy sat on the SAG (who advises what traffic management requirements he needs) actually runs the traffic management company who provides the people. Jesus wept.

Depending on the guys honesty that might not necessarily be a bad thing though as he will have a very good idea of what's involved. Obviously if he's going over the top on his recommendations then it is a problem and perhaps if your friend feels that is the case he could get a second opinion from someone with suitable experience. If that second opinion suggests he may be over stepping the mark then a formal complaint could be made to your division or BC HQ?

shockedsoshocked

Pross wrote:

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

A friend is trying to organise the Divs for my region. Turns out a guy sat on the SAG (who advises what traffic management requirements he needs) actually runs the traffic management company who provides the people. Jesus wept.

Depending on the guys honesty that might not necessarily be a bad thing though as he will have a very good idea of what's involved. Obviously if he's going over the top on his recommendations then it is a problem and perhaps if your friend feels that is the case he could get a second opinion from someone with suitable experience. If that second opinion suggests he may be over stepping the mark then a formal complaint could be made to your division or BC HQ?

Well at the moment my friend is looking into it. The organiser of the only open road race had to hire 3 people this year, as opposed to one for the previous two or three years on the insistence of this bloke, who is obviously happy to provide the staff...

Sounds like a ridiculous scenario with a complete conflict of interests here.

Thick Tester

Ok,
Seems like a lot of BC bashing if you ask me. My experience of them and the CDNW armarda has been pretty damn positive.

Theres a lot that goes on behind the scenes, hard work, countless e-mails, levy forms, results cards, start sheets, enquiries even down to sourcing camera's from the region and cloakroom tickets for gear checking.

I dont know what people trully expect BC to do other than what they already do? Lets see.

Provide a website and event listing / online entry system.
Produce a hard copy racing license.
Provide the insurance cover for all events
A great framework for Risk Assesment and Safety.
Fully trained and competant commisaires
Results and reports.

If you compare that with other grass roots sports - which is what 234 racing is, you get a lot more than just a ref turning up at a local park for a sunday league match.

I've been pretty critical of some TLI events in the past, but having ridden two this year i'll revise that view slighty to a simple wish list that a following car and commisaire system could be looked into! Somethimes they seem 'less stressful' and the racing can be more brutal.

I dont think its broken all in all... - all thats happening is that is a crush on demand for places in BC RR's at the moment. Its a great 'problem' to have. All we need is more people organising and volunteering to do commisaires courses marshalling. There are PLENTY of defunct or unused road race circuits that could easilly be re-asseed and reused which would boost the calendar significantly. If you're stuck give your regions BC events officer a call or speak with your TLI regional sec.

Anyway with that, I'm off to compile last weeks league results, sort out who has got the club flags and road signs and do my shopping list for cakes and refreshments for our clubs road race this weekend!

jibberjim

Thick Tester wrote:

Provide a website and event listing / online entry system.

The online entry system has been there a few months, and it was a service that is already provided for many years by riderhq and others so hardly important.

Thick Tester wrote:

Produce a hard copy racing license.

Yet it's impossible for a club rep to get a list of members with a race licence to enable checking that they are actually members of the club they're claiming to race for.

Thick Tester wrote:

Fully trained and competant commisaires

Who are all local volunteers, not BC provided other than publishing a list in a book.

Not to actually bash BC, but the things you list are not overly impressive from the funds available to BC.

hammerite

jibberjim wrote:

Not to actually bash BC, but the things you list are not overly impressive from the funds available to BC.

Really interesting thread, as someone who is considering putting on a race it's a good insight (my club organise TTs, a cycling festival and CX races, but no RR as yet).

What funds actually are available to BC for amateur road racing?

Unlike a lot of other sports BC has to fund promotion of cycling as a leisure activity not just a competitive sport. Then there are all the different strands of cycle sport to consider. So whilst they're probably one of if not the best funded NGB in British sport they probably have more demands on those funds than most other NGBs.

One of the events we organise had the assistance from BC we were very grateful of the help. However, one thing that we were reminded was to make sure the event was sustainable, we were told the event should be financed and managed so it could be repeated if we had no outside assistance from BC.

Even with all the funding BC have, that funding isn't certain beyond the next year or two hence the big membership drive they have. They may have to become an organisation that has to become sustainable off it's membership fees, competition levies and sponsorship deals - and not grants/government funding.

Pross

Don't forget that BC also pay full time employees on the development side of things. They have people who get out into schools, advising on setting-up Go Ride clubs and so on so they definately don't spend all the money they make at the top end.

Jinx9

As a race organiser myself, I can say that the funding from BC for road race organisation has been nil.

I'm surprised no one has picked up on the fact that Commissaries and NEG riders get 40ppm (in our region) but organisers can only claim 30ppm - why? Perhaps as mamba80 said, their cars run on free petrol and never wear out!! I'm not knocking the fine service that the NEG do but the Government's mileage rate for motorbikes is 24ppm so NEG riders should be declaring the other 16ppm as income! I don't agree with profiting from a cycling club that has limited funds - I never claimed expenses and neither did the marshals or lead car drivers. We paid out over £500 in BC fees and officials costs which is more than we made for the club.

Personally I don't give out my phone number and have a separate email address for races. I don't mind answering emails as long as they're not because the racer can't be bothered to read the information in the programme sent.

For those who have no experience of organising a race, it is extremely time consuming (last race I easily put in 80-100 hours) and it can be stressful having to run round here, there and everywhere to pick up signage and CB radios - we had to do a 200 mile trip to collect them, paid for by ourselves.

Getting helpers is the hardest part of putting on a race. Those who have said they can't put on races because they're a small team / club, then why not offer to help at another club's event? We had a helper's prize draw at our race and gave them free drinks and cakes as an incentive to give up their day so riders could race. We also had an agreement with other local clubs to help out at their events in return for them helping us. Another thing we put in place was that no one from our club could race unless they provided a marshal in their place.

Going back to the original post, I would say that most racers seem to remember that an organiser is giving up his / her time to put on a event for them to take part in. Others need to cut them some slack even if they don't agree with the way the organiser is doing things - if you don't like it organise your own race! And definitely do not post on public forums slating them otherwise you may find you have no races to attend in the future! Your entry fee is to cover costs, not to pay for a service!

Pross

I'm surprised to see organisers mentioning that they can only get 30p per mile in expenses. I've never even thought about expenses when I've organised as to me the main points are:-

a) Put on some racing to help keep the scene healthy
b) Hopefully make a profit for the club to invest back into its members

Obviously external bodies that you want to help you out should have their costs met (NEG, comms) but paying costs for club members to assist just seems wrong to me. I've driven lead car on several races which means driving over 100 miles in total but to me that is just what being part of a club is all about. In South Wales one of the main comms even refuses to accept any expenses payments. I would agree that BC and the regions should help with the logistics of running races - providing assistance with risk assessments, laision with statutory bodies, training comms, providing race equipment etc. but payment of expenses should come out of the entry fees surely?

Tom Butcher

Edited as I might have read Pross' post wrong !

Was going to say - I pay myself expenses - what it costs me to put on the race - that includes over 250 miles of driving - but the expenses do of course come out of entry fees.

So for me that's fine - organisers shouldn't have to end up out of pocket. 30p per mile seems reasonable to me and there are a few references on the BC site to that being an accepted rate even if it isn't an official one.

maryka

I'm surprised that so many people are advocating just paying expenses yourself (or expecting your volunteers to) as being a good thing?

I have enjoyed organising and will do it again, but there's no way I enjoy it to the tune of self-funding a tank or two of petrol, or expecting my lead car drivers to do it for free. Nobody's making money off the races I do (the Surrey League's profits go back to the racers at the end of the season in the form of points earned = money) but there's no way I'm that generous to fund it myself!

If entries don't cover basic expenses as defined by BC in mileage terms, or just to cover the organisers expenses like hall rental, petrol, catering stuff, etc., then entry fees are way too low. Why the need to martyr oneself?

Pross

Possibly different with the league thing. In the case of races I have organised anything left after expenses and prize money has gone into the club coffers. I haven't organised an event for a while as I've been away from the sport and maybe the cost of fuel these days means that people do need to be covered, it's certainly something I'll offer when I finally get around to organising again next season although I'll be surprised (but not begrudging) if any club members accept anything. I was offered £10 the last time I did lead car but turned it down as it just felt wrong to take it. I don't want to sound smug and to be honest I could have done with the money but it is only a couple of times a year in my case and I do it to put back into a sport that I have enjoyed over the years. I'm not suggesting that taking payment is wrong as I'm sure many people help out far more often than me and it will get expensive then. However, I really don't think the expenses should be paid out by BC or the regions. As for the rate, I would think that 20p per mile is more than enough to cover the cost of fuel plus the minimal wear and tear that may occur .

Tom Butcher

I don't know - at work I get 40p per mile so 30p per mile doesn't seem unreasonable.

In the past Pross I've done the same as you - not taken money - even when I was organising the race so probably 250 miles worth without taking money - multiply over 3 races where I didn't take expenses and I've subsidised the local racing to the tune of a couple of hundred pounds just there. Where do you stop - when it was postal start sheets do you stand the cost of the postage yourself, the printing/photocopying, paying for the HQ ? I don't see how travel expenses should be any different - it all comes out of your wallet.

Pross

I don't necessarily disagree, I'd just never thought of doing it to be honest. I think the work mileage rate is slightly different as you are using your car to help the company make money for the Directors or shareholders. I'll certainly make provision in the next race I organise for paying mileage but as it's only likely to be one event for me and maybe 100 miles I won't bother with it for me. Obviously if I was helping out another club or a league then I would accept the expenses though.

carbon337

I'm new to all this racing but I struggle to get my head around giving money out as prizes. I have raced yachts for years to national, European and local levels. Competed in events in the states but I've never known anyone win money.

I won a European championship back in 2003 and didn't win anything other than a nice bowl, a new pen knife and a flag. Surely amateur sport is about the race itself, the experience.

From organising yacht races for years clubs use entry to pay expenses on fuel for RIBs. You don't have to be a member of any clubs to race, nor a member of the RYA. Clubs are members of the RYA but get nothing for organising races. Local companies sponsor prizes. Breweries & chandlers as examples. Mostly the important thing for yacht racing is seeing your name on a trophy that's been around for years and hopefully will stay around for many more.

Maybe for local cycle races should follow similar format. Donations for prizes and entry goes to clubs who can make a small profit to run future events. Clubs organise volunteers or even pay a minor day payment to officials.

jibberjim

carbon337 wrote:

Maybe for local cycle races should follow similar format. Donations for prizes and entry goes to clubs who can make a small profit to run future events. Clubs organise volunteers or even pay a minor day payment to officials.

Money is not a problem, our club has plenty of money at the current cost of promoting, what it doesn't have is time. And to actually pay for that time is simply too expensive compared to the money that comes in. 80riders at 15 quid a head can only bring in 1200 quid, of which 240 goes straight to BC for the insurance. The NEG guys, Commissaires and First Aid will need at least 160 in petrol money, the HQ rental 100. So there's only 700 left (if you get a full field) before any other incidentals are covered (it assumes you have all the equipment you need and no numbers need replacing etc.) That much money is not going pay any reasonable amount in pay for the organiser or marshals. (not worth the hassle of reporting it on your tax return.)

Having 100 quid of that 700 as prize money doesn't change anything - people aren't going to organise just because they get 2.50 an hour for their 40 hours of organising, McDonalds give free burgers and more cash - and probably less abuse. I think prize money is nice, it's never anywhere near the cost of entering, but it's much better than winning a cup.

okgo

Although Jim some of the prizes on offer of late have been decent.

I got my entry back and a few quid for a 5th at Hillingdon, and I won a £50 bikeshop voucher the other day with a load of other goodies. Some of the races are putting on a decent spread it would seem. Not that they are the reason I race but it's actually not too bad if you place often. I would say after my few races so far that I'm nearly breaking even with what I've won. It is small change but a nice gesture I guess.

jibberjim

okgo wrote:

I would say after my few races so far that I'm nearly breaking even with what I've won. It is small change but a nice gesture I guess.

But that will soon change once you're racing at the appropriate level, and remember crits are different - no NEG to pay, commissaire expense if you have any are just for the petrol to the event, Hillingdon is less than the cost of the hall, you don't have the 80 rider limit of the road, Levy could only be 1 or 2 quid (1 on a tuesday 3/4, 2 on Reg C crit) so there's more spare money. But there's no more opportunities really for more such crits unless you build a new circuit... So organising is really talking about road racing where the costs are higher.

okgo

All makes sense. The £50 was from the road race I did last week.

mamba80

I think most if not all organisers dont do it for money, its grt way to get your club out there, put something back into the sport and if all goes well, funds for the club.
BUT the organiser and others have costs and as the entry fee is so cheap (relatively) then surely it should go up so that BC can make the financial contribution back to the club, rather than the club organiser made to feel guilty for taking expenses (one organiser was told recently " no takes expenses in this club"

btw BC and the BC region would take £4.50 per rider in levies, so BC would take £360 for a 80 rider field, and that wont includ any day licences @ £10 ago, and they give back what, exactly?