Bike industry fail...
Sambuca
Posts: 116
As a proper keen cyclist I just wanted to see other peoples feeling in the industry after my bad experience in the purchase of a new Whyte 146. After ordering a discounted 2011 and waiting four weeks I was told by my lbs that they couldn't supply it and would have to order a replacent 2012 instead which would take another 2 weeks. After collecting this very expensive bike one ride has shown major Fox fork issues and major Avid brake issues- both of which need to be returned to the service centres. I may be unlucky but after spending £3000 I would expect things to be of a better standard on the whole? Incidentally the 146 is an awesome bike which I love but being let down by the bike industry...
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shit happens.
and what were the issues?"Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
Parktools :?:SheldonBrown0 -
Well I'm not going to defend it after the palaver I have had ordering a new frame/forks (see "Evans" thread). And my brother is in a similar position only it has been going on much longer - trying to find bikes that are claimed to be in stock but are not.
It seems to me the industry is playing very hard and loose with the law when it comes to advertising (and taking orders for) stock that is not real, prices that are known to be wrong but not corrected, and in demanding full payment up front to order in stock when actually they claimed to have stock in the first place!
Price fixing is another massive issue. Margins in this industry are much higher than the high-tech ones I have always worked in, yet advertised prices are too often identical, and too often people "can't move" from the RRP for current-season kit. Clearly someone - the OEM presumably - is controlling the prices. That is completely illegal. In a true market, there would be much more price variation and, with popular items, usually someone shedding stock having taken too much of it.
I am not generally a moaner. I spend a lot of money online and have done for over a decade. I don't get these issues elsewhere.0 -
Issues were massive stiction with the fork- you can weigh and weigh on the bars with no movement then they drop all of a sudden, also if you cycle them up and down they feel very rough and not smooth at all. Elixir brakes pulsing badly to the point of bouncing your fingers back and forward even though the discs look true.... Such a shame as the bike is a real nice platform even with these probs....0
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Sambuca wrote:Issues were massive stiction with the fork- you can weigh and weigh on the bars with no movement then they drop all of a sudden, also if you cycle them up and down they feel very rough and not smooth at all. Elixir brakes pulsing badly to the point of bouncing your fingers back and forward even though the discs look true.... Such a shame as the bike is a real nice platform even with these probs....
by the sounds of it you've got a 'friday afternoon' bike
i have products by both the manufacturers you've mentioned and have had no probs so i think it could just be a case of bad luck, not what you want to hear obviously and hopefully it'll get sorted out quickly for you to enjoy the bike 0 -
jehosophat wrote:
Price fixing is another massive issue. Margins in this industry are much higher than the high-tech ones I have always worked in, yet advertised prices are too often identical, and too often people "can't move" from the RRP for current-season kit. Clearly someone - the OEM presumably - is controlling the prices. That is completely illegal. In a true market, there would be much more price variation and, with popular items, usually someone shedding stock having taken too much of it.
I am not generally a moaner. I spend a lot of money online and have done for over a decade. I don't get these issues elsewhere.
why should they move from the RRP if no-one else does?
but tbh if you shop around you can usually find somewhere that does move below RRP.0 -
Just bad luck and as kev says probably a friday afternoon bike, don't let is spoil the new bike and im sure the problems will get resolved.0
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Welcome to buying things, sometimes one of the parts may have a bit of a problem, or not work 100%. They can't guarantee that every single part leaving the factory will be perfect, and that is definitely not the fault of the LBS.
It can be annoying, but shoot does happen, and best to just get it remedied, than waste your time on highly unproductive things.0 -
...and this my friends is why I buy second hand
I can't imagine the disappointment when paying thousands for a new bike, waiting weeks for it to be delivered only to have to send it back and wait more while they sort out some problem which shouldn't have occurred in the first place.
I'd rather take my chances on used bike for half the price and have some cash to spare to sort out any probs myself
...saying that, forks will probably explode on the first proper DH run of the season on the Session 8 now... :?"Why have that extra tooth if you're not using it?" - Brian Lopes
Votec V.SX Enduro 'Alpine Thug' 2012/2013 build
Trek Session 80 -
For every one person that has a bad experience, there are probably 100 that have good ones - we just hear more about the former ;-).0
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Sambuca: there is no bike industry as such, just lots of companies doing their own thing.
When it all comes together it's great but it's inevitable that problems occur & mistakes will be made0 -
..as they say in this part of the world.."exactement!""Why have that extra tooth if you're not using it?" - Brian Lopes
Votec V.SX Enduro 'Alpine Thug' 2012/2013 build
Trek Session 80 -
jehosophat wrote:
Price fixing is another massive issue. Margins in this industry are much higher than the high-tech ones I have always worked in, yet advertised prices are too often identical, and too often people "can't move" from the RRP for current-season kit. Clearly someone - the OEM presumably - is controlling the prices. That is completely illegal. In a true market, there would be much more price variation and, with popular items, usually someone shedding stock having taken too much of it.
Whilst that is a manufacturer fixing their prices at the point of sale, that isn't price fixing in the truest sense of the phrase, nor is it completely illegal. If it was Apple would be screwed. Price fixing is usually when sellers (i.e. supermarkets) collude on the price of an item they all sell (i.e. milk) and agree to keep the price at an inflated level, in effect manipulating the market. This is not the same as a manufacturer of bikes telling their suppliers what they are to sell the bike at. In that case if you don't like the price don't buy that bike.0 -
This. RRP / MRP is not price fixing. It's up to the retailer if they want to offer discounts off these prices and make less profit themselves. And plenty of them do"Why have that extra tooth if you're not using it?" - Brian Lopes
Votec V.SX Enduro 'Alpine Thug' 2012/2013 build
Trek Session 80 -
felix.london wrote:...and this my friends is why I buy second hand
You could turn this on it's head. It's a reason not to buy secondhand. The OP has been able to return the faulty goods and get them sorted out for free ( all it has cost is your time, which you can use to bargain for freebies etc. with supplier). If you buy second hand you have no recourse for action. By buying new you have legal rights to help rectify faults.... however yes, buying second hand (I do it) can get you some bargains if you're happy to take the risk.0 -
Yep, clearly the OP just hasn't done enough shopping around. Margins are tight, and bike shops mostly sell bikes around RRP because they all buy the bike for the same price from the manufacturer/distributor and the RRP is a good price to sell at to ensure they make profit. Haggling is not illegal in this country, just not widely practiced, so I don't see why you can't. Also, that's what you get for buying a bike from evans, unless it's on sale, evans tend to be quite expensive. Not to mention the fact that you should probably be supporting your LBS (not evans) if you want better service and competitive prices...felix.london wrote:This. RRP / MRP is not price fixing. It's up to the retailer if they want to offer discounts off these prices and make less profit themselves. And plenty of them do0 -
mcnultycop wrote:Whilst that is a manufacturer fixing their prices at the point of sale, that isn't price fixing in the truest sense of the phrase, nor is it completely illegal. If it was Apple would be screwed. Price fixing is usually when sellers (i.e. supermarkets) collude on the price of an item they all sell (i.e. milk) and agree to keep the price at an inflated level, in effect manipulating the market. This is not the same as a manufacturer of bikes telling their suppliers what they are to sell the bike at. In that case if you don't like the price don't buy that bike.
I don't think this is the case. I know what you mean - the most publicised version of price fixing is where competitors collude on price. But as a manufacturer or distributor you are not allowed to tell resellers/retailers what to sell things for, or the minimum margin they must make. It is illegal as I understand it. I have worked for manufacturers or distributors selling IT products and services - both direct and through resellers - for the last 16 years and have always been told we absolutely cannot tell resellers what to sell at, or to make a minimum margin to keep the resellers/retailers happy. In my first (well, first civilian) job, at an IT distributor, HP were taken to the cleaners for insisting on a minimum margin at distributor level to stop prices getting so low people did not want to sell their stuff.
So when you call around for bike prices and they are all advertised at exactly the same price, and you know the margins are quite big, and if you ask what is the best price they can do and they all say something like "10% off RRP - we are not allowed to go lower than that" I find it highly unlikely people are not breaking the law. Doo-doo would hit the fan on an epic scale if manufacturers or distributors were found to be doing this.
I have a major problem with this right now, I work for a household name brand and we sell mostly through dedicated resellers, and they sometimes trash the price to win deals they stumble across that other resellers have spent time and money building. The original reseller always comes to us asking why we don't insist on a certain price, and our lawyers/managers say any such thing is utterly illegal.0 -
i have no idea about the legal issues people have mentioned, but if it is illegal for a manufacturer to dictate prices why do we have so many products on the market with prices incorperated into the packaging??????Ride Crash Ride Again0
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I don't see what the problem is; if something is too expensive buy something else.0
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Take off the tinfoil hat for a moment, and consider that the salesman saying that is likely referring to his boss' or company policy's guidance for the minimum price for something. A shop needs to make a profit on things they sell, so they quite likely have a limit on how low they'll go.jehosophat wrote:they all say something like "10% off RRP - we are not allowed to go lower than that" I find it highly unlikely people are not breaking the law.0 -
It's a common turn of phrase, a "monday morning job", or a "friday afternoon job".DCR00 wrote:what's a "Friday afternoon bike" ?
It means when a factory os assembly worker is not in the mood to be concentrating on the job, either first thing in the week, or with the distraction of soon finishing work for the weekend.0 -
DCR00 wrote:i see
i thought maybe it referred to a bike that was taken for a ride on a Friday afternoon and so was a bit shagged (maybe that's a Friday evening bike, and a different kind of bike....)
That my friend, is a scary insight into you thought process Ride Crash Ride Again0 -
YeehaaMcgee wrote:
Take off the tinfoil hat for a moment, and consider that the salesman saying that is likely referring to his boss' or company policy's guidance for the minimum price for something. A shop needs to make a profit on things they sell, so they quite likely have a limit on how low they'll go.jehosophat wrote:they all say something like "10% off RRP - we are not allowed to go lower than that" I find it highly unlikely people are not breaking the law.
...Especially with most of their business being lost to tinterweb."Why have that extra tooth if you're not using it?" - Brian Lopes
Votec V.SX Enduro 'Alpine Thug' 2012/2013 build
Trek Session 80 -
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felix.london wrote:YeehaaMcgee wrote:
Take off the tinfoil hat for a moment, and consider that the salesman saying that is likely referring to his boss' or company policy's guidance for the minimum price for something. A shop needs to make a profit on things they sell, so they quite likely have a limit on how low they'll go.jehosophat wrote:they all say something like "10% off RRP - we are not allowed to go lower than that" I find it highly unlikely people are not breaking the law.
...Especially with most of their business being lost to tinterweb.
i think this is the reason for a lot of peoples expectation of a discount. Pre internet shopping, you called round a few places and was happy with any discount they gave you. I think the years of discounted internet shopping has led us to expect the same low prices everywhere we go. The fact is none of the LBS's can really afford to drop to those levels due to overheads!Ride Crash Ride Again0 -
Markmjh wrote:i have no idea about the legal issues people have mentioned, but if it is illegal for a manufacturer to dictate prices why do we have so many products on the market with prices incorperated into the packaging??????
Just because a product is price-marked, shops don't need to sell that item at the marked price.
A lot of the time, price marking is more of a marketing tool than anything. And shops are not obliged to sell the product at the marked price anyway.0 -
Indeed. And of course marked prices are always called "suggested selling prices" or "recommended" retail prices and so on to cover the manufacturer.
Besides blatant collusion within certain markets, in all industries it is odd how different markets are offered different prices for the same thing. Not illegal, but annoying. The UK tends to come out of this badly, though the single European market helps. It does annoy me that high end US bikes are sold here for the same price in £ as in $ there, for example. And a look at something like the Rose bikes catalogue (German) is interesting - how come they can sell things like Shimano parts so cheap? Their brake prices are amazing, and one example I noticed was XTR bottom brackets - £30-35 here, Rose have them up for €19.... How can that be? Or XT disc brake - £110 here, £67 from Rose...
In some of these examples the internet seems to hinder, not help, because the localisation settings in things like Google often don't offer you German shops in your search results... but look for them!0 -
Wow, you must really think that the owners or CRC, Wiggle, Evans, Leisure Lakes and every other large cycle retailer sit down in dark room with Madison, Fishers Outdoor, Ison and every other major UK distributor and plot how they can rip off every schmuck that walks through their door. I mean come on, what must the margin on bikes be now days? 75%? 80%? Cycle shops must be rolling in their money0
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RevellRider wrote:Wow, you must really think that the owners or CRC, Wiggle, Evans, Leisure Lakes and every other large cycle retailer sit down in dark room with Madison, Fishers Outdoor, Ison and every other major UK distributor and plot how they can rip off every schmuck that walks through their door. I mean come on, what must the margin on bikes be now days? 75%? 80%? Cycle shops must be rolling in their money
Mate of mine owns a bike shop and he is looking into offering credit terms for bikes which the credit company takes 12% of the sale price, so there is a margin but once this is taken into account a small one.
Big chains will have far superior margins just due to the volume they buy.0
