Censorship or Righteous Upholding of Freedom?

veronese68

rjsterry wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

Well, yes. But everything to do with human interaction is political - 'tis the definition of the word.

What a religious framework allows someone to do it step outside of the moral framework within which they treat their fellows when dealing with those of a different persuasion.

You wouldn't set your neighbour on fire - but if he's a Papist then that's OK.
Sling a senator to the lions? Never! But he's a Christian! Oh, that's fine then!
Let's keep shelling Split! It's full of Moslems

etc.

I think it's more that religion provides one of many ways of defining two groups of people as 'us' and 'them'. Once they are 'them', it's a lot easier to do bad things to them, because they are not like 'us'.

I think one of the problems when extremists bring religious differences into it is they go beyond right and wrong to good and evil. Eliminating evil is considered reasonable ground for a massacre, by eliminating evil they are guaranteed their place in whichever paradise they believe in.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

Well, yes. But everything to do with human interaction is political - 'tis the definition of the word.

What a religious framework allows someone to do it step outside of the moral framework within which they treat their fellows when dealing with those of a different persuasion.

You wouldn't set your neighbour on fire - but if he's a Papist then that's OK.
Sling a senator to the lions? Never! But he's a Christian! Oh, that's fine then!
Let's keep shelling Split! It's full of Moslems

etc.

I think it's more that religion provides one of many ways of defining two groups of people as 'us' and 'them'. Once they are 'them', it's a lot easier to do bad things to them, because they are not like 'us'.

Ja, any identity gets boiled down to binaries.

That's the whole premise of any study of 'identity'.

My point is, to hold all religion blame is to deny people valuable and powerful spirituality.

It's the politics that's the problem. If this was just a homophobic group with no religious ties, we wouldn't be having this debate. We'd have all said it was terrible and that'd be the end of it. The cause here isn't the faith - since we know many of the same faith who aren't homophobic. It's that the homophobes put their politics under a faith umbrella.

Someone saying to me let god show you the way to spiritual enlightenment, and all god's teachings is no worse than a tory campaigner telling me that their politics is the right way to govern.

Even when we discuss pure politics we can use their religious background as a likely indicator of their political persuasion - heavy Christians tend to be socially conservative and vote that way for example. I don't see why people flip it about into the foreground, with the politics as a background.

Let people be as spiritual and religious as they want to be.

Let's stamp out any nasty politics.

rjsterry

notsoblue wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I can't think of a concrete example where the problem presented by faith isn't actually a political one.

Religion and religious faith are just an extension of human politics perpetuated by those who pretend to have or actually have (pick one) backing from a higher power.

Whether you're criticising religion for causing bad things to happen, or excusing it you can't conveniently pick religion and politics apart.

Not sure I quite agree with this. Religion is very definitely political - just look at some of the papal history, not to mention the formation of the CofE - but faith is much more of a personal internal thing. I also don't think that, at its best, religion is about acquiring divine backing. I think it is more about aspiring to a divine example of behaviour to others, and (if you are of an evangelical persuasion) encouraging others to do likewise.

rjsterry

Ben6899 wrote:

I think you're mistakenly reckoning I'm lumping all religious folk into the same basket. I'm not.

Fair enough. Out of interest, have you read any part of the Bible (or any other religious book for that matter) - if only for the purposes of knowing your enemy

Ben6899

rjsterry wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

I think you're mistakenly reckoning I'm lumping all religious folk into the same basket. I'm not.

Fair enough. Out of interest, have you read any part of the Bible (or any other religious book for that matter) - if only for the purposes of knowing your enemy

I have read parts of the Bible and one of the Testaments when I was at school.

notsoblue

rjsterry wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I can't think of a concrete example where the problem presented by faith isn't actually a political one.

Religion and religious faith are just an extension of human politics perpetuated by those who pretend to have or actually have (pick one) backing from a higher power.

Whether you're criticising religion for causing bad things to happen, or excusing it you can't conveniently pick religion and politics apart.

Not sure I quite agree with this. Religion is very definitely political - just look at some of the papal history, not to mention the formation of the CofE - but faith is much more of a personal internal thing. I also don't think that, at its best, religion is about acquiring divine backing. I think it is more about aspiring to a divine example of behaviour to others, and (if you are of an evangelical persuasion) encouraging others to do likewise.

I guess this is what irks me. Being an atheist (well, technically agnostic), I understand what you mean by "Aspiring to a divine example", but in my world view there is no such thing as the divine. All the efforts that you go through to fulfil this aspiration are behaviours that were within you and everyone else already anyway. God gets too much credit. I was at a CofE wedding ceremony recently and there was a good 15 minute sermon about how god is effectively the third person in the relationship, this contrasted to secular weddings services I've been to which are actually about the couple. Anyway, I digress...

I just get a little unnerved by the idea that those aspiring to a divine example are implying that my world view somehow limits me.

Also, "Encouraging others to do likewise" can be taken any number of ways. It can be Lighthouse magazine through the door, or an invitation to an alpha course, or a church event. Or it can be this.

ddraver

Rick Chasey wrote:

A) It's the politics that's the problem. If this was just a homophobic group with no religious ties, we wouldn't be having this debate. We'd have all said it was terrible and that'd be the end of it. The cause here isn't the faith - since we know many of the same faith who aren't homophobic. It's that the homophobes put their politics under a faith umbrella.

Someone saying to me let god show you the way to spiritual enlightenment, and all god's teachings is no worse than a tory campaigner telling me that their politics is the right way to govern.

A) But the difference is that these people hold these political beliefs BECAUSE of their religion, and are then claiming that they have a right to display them anywhere BECAUSE of their religious beliefs give them more credibility and more right to be heard than another groups beliefs. That's why the discussion of religion is important.

They believe (rightly or wrongly) that homosexuality is wrong because of what they ve read in their fairy story...oops, sorry, Holy Book. If the Holy Book said that homosexuality was the path to enlightenment - they'd be all in favour.

but the Tory campaigner should (SHOULD!) be arguing using real, demonstrable facts and explaining why the options they favour are correct and what they will mean - I happily concede this doesnt happen very often, that's why I don't follow politics much.

The BNP are perfectly free to advertise their plans for the environment/economy etc. but are not allowed to advertise totally baseless racism

Background - Current geologist and Atheist who was a choirboy at public school with a chapel every day and a Eucharist service every other sunday. Therefore have sung/read/spoken/been forced to listen to many stories of the bible when I should have been out biking!